Which, if either, would you choose and why?

[Sachmle]

Very similar to the NS Interceptor class, course the Interceptors are better looking...

SMS Blücher, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921

Displacement:
   11,000 t light; 11,610 t standard; 12,840 t normal; 13,824 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.10 ft / 551.18 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.47 ft (normal load)
   169.50 m / 168.00 m x 21.64 m  x 6.85 m

Armament:
      9 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (3x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,141 lbs / 1,878 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.72" / 120 mm   382.22 ft / 116.50 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.12" / 130 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      3.94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1.57" / 40 mm   0.79" / 20 mm            -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4.72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 83,110 shp / 62,000 Kw = 30.14 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,215 tons

Complement:
   603 - 784

Cost:
   £3.112 million / $12.450 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 520 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 2,070 tons, 16.1 %
      - Belts: 761 tons, 5.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 486 tons, 3.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 767 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,862 tons, 22.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,197 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,840 tons, 14.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,744 lbs / 5,781 Kg = 30.2 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.511
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.60 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.95 ft / 7.30 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.04 ft / 6.11 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,337 Square feet or 2,447 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 635 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.73
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Guinness]

My concern is: is this thing's range sufficient for charging around the Pacific and Indian Oceans hunting down enemy cruisers? 7500 at 15 knots equals what, about 4000 at 18, 2500 at 20 (just guessing).

It was endurance more than anything else that drove Wheeler's displacement up. That's a ship that would be well disposed in a 1v1 matchup with this ship, btw (just sayin'). To me, a ship with 24cm guns needs thicker and taller belts.

I do recognize that economy dictates stopping at some size, however, and it's nice that this ship comes in under 170m.

[P3D]

Niice.  8)

To me, a ship with 24cm guns needs thicker and taller belts.

Keep in mind, that this ship is not a shrunk armored cruiser, with balanced armor/armament. Rather, a protected/light cruiser that got bigger, armored only against 6" (and long-range 8"), but with guns against other armored cruisers. Effectively a "Washington Treaty cruiser" with 24cm guns. With any decent armor and TDS, you are looking at a 14,000t+ ship that would be longer than 170m.

The ship is indeed similar to, but considerably (1700t) lighter than the Interceptors, the main difference being the smaller extent of armor.

[Guinness]

All quite true, I suppose. I still wonder if a a more extensively armored side at the expense of armor thickness might not be a better compromise. A 75mm belt ought to be sufficient to stop up to 6" shells fired at long ranges or oblique angles, and could be at least a meter taller.

[ctwaterman]

Sam and I were discussing his Ship and the New UNK Armored Cruiser and the logical ship to compare them too was indeed the Wheeler.  I guess the range to run around hunting Raiders in such is a good need but it is dependend upon just how far apart your ports are located, and the availability of refueling ships.

As an Example the UNK cruiser is only set for operations between the UNK and North America basically the Atlantic Ocean It doesnt need Pacific Ocean ranges.

[Jefgte]

105mm guns are now too light vs DDs & TBs
IMO, use 120mm guns is a better choice.


Jef

[P3D]

105mm guns are now too light vs DDs & TBs
IMO, use 120mm guns is a better choice.
Jef

???
Against DDs the main armament would be used, against <500t TBs the 10.5cm is not only more than adequate but better (single-piece ammo).

The Wheeler comparison is good in the contrast only. With the high speed, that extra armor does not cost that much extra.

[Jefgte]

ROF of the 240mm is too slow vs DDs attack.
105 have a short range.

ROF & range; 120mm is the better choice.


Jef

[Sachmle]

If I wanted a Wheeler sized ship, I would use something like this.

SMS Lützow, Deutsche Reich Großes Kreuzer laid down 1921

Displacement:
   17,000 t light; 17,862 t standard; 19,580 t normal; 20,955 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   633.20 ft / 623.36 ft x 87.27 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   193.00 m / 190.00 m x 26.60 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      12 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (4x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 19.84lbs / 9.00kg shells, 1921 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1921 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,530 lbs / 2,508 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   470.80 ft / 143.50 m   11.22 ft / 3.42 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 116 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   470.80 ft / 143.50 m   20.90 ft / 6.37 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 104,558 shp / 78,000 Kw = 30.03 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,093 tons

Complement:
   826 - 1,075

Cost:
   £4.286 million / $17.142 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 696 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 4,343 tons, 22.2 %
      - Belts: 1,304 tons, 6.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 573 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 993 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,381 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 92 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,600 tons, 18.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,011 tons, 40.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,580 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,945 lbs / 11,768 Kg = 61.5 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.549
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.55 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.23 ft / 7.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,913 Square feet or 3,522 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 724 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.52
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

ROF of the 240mm is too slow vs DDs attack.
105 have a short range.

ROF & range; 120mm is the better choice.


Jef

My reasoning is that at 10+km distances, the 24cm gun will hit targets, while it is at the limit of effective range for the 10.5 and 12cm guns*. Moreover, the practical ROF of the 12cm gun won't be any higher than what could be expected the 24cm gun at those distances (3-5RPM) as one would have to wait to spot where the shell actually fell.

Below 10km, the 10.5cm guns are just as fine as the 12cm ones, but they have higher ROF with single-piece ammo (and easier to load manually in bad weather).

*: with the rule of thumb that the fall of a X cm diameter shell can be spotted (optically) up to X km distance

[Kaiser Kirk]

Sam and I were discussing his Ship and the New UNK Armored Cruiser and the logical ship to compare them too was indeed the Wheeler.  I guess the range to run around hunting Raiders in such is a good need but it is dependend upon just how far apart your ports are located, and the availability of refueling ships.

As an Example the UNK cruiser is only set for operations between the UNK and North America basically the Atlantic Ocean It doesnt need Pacific Ocean ranges.

I generally view these matters through the lense of 'What is the OPFOR' ?  If Prussia is unlikely to face the CSA, then the Wheeler isn't necessarily relevant. I'd be looking at the ships I'm more likely to be facing in times of trouble. If the OPFOR is the New Swiss Olympia class the desired vessel may be different than what you want for a Morai Rapid fire or Dutch Willem Janszson.  

Bavaria does have to consider Hapsburg and Prussian ships, and for a far lesser degree French and Italian.  Even lacking "real" data, broad parameters can be guessed by reverse engineering requirements.  The Prinzrejent Luitpold is slightly bigger and very quaint in gunnery arrangement, but the Blucher only has an IZ between @11.5-13km. The PrzL's high upper belt artificially thickens the main deck due to the plunging angle needed to clear it, so the faster, more modern ship would have a problem.  Likewise the Lutzow is more modern than the Donar, but has NO IZ, while the Donar would have one to the 9.45" guns.  

To me, that means these vessels are only dangerous to my Leipzig Class, but being much younger and two-three times larger, that is not suprising. Even then, there is only a 2knot speed advantage, so presuming clean hulls, it's a 2-3 hr stern chase from spotting distance to maximum FC range- and working in tropical waters I would think would make Prussian hulls foul quicker. A late afternoon encounter could easily turn into a evening escape.

ed. Actually, this is where I think end belts matter. Chasing a Leipzig it would be shelling you with HE as much as possible, in the hopes of opening your forward hull and causing flooding- forcing you to slow down

[Kaiser Kirk]

My reasoning is that at 10+km distances, the 24cm gun will hit targets, while it is at the limit of effective range for the 10.5 and 12cm guns*. Moreover, the practical ROF of the 12cm gun won't be any higher than what could be expected the 24cm gun at those distances (3-5RPM) as one would have to wait to spot where the shell actually fell.

Below 10km, the 10.5cm guns are just as fine as the 12cm ones, but they have higher ROF with single-piece ammo (and easier to load manually in bad weather).

*: with the rule of thumb that the fall of a X cm diameter shell can be spotted (optically) up to X km distance

Well, my little comparison of 18cm vs. 15cm seemed to support this, as the slower ROF was compensated for by the greater range, not accounting for the 1 shot/1 kill of the 18cm vs. 1-2shots/kill of the 15cm.