History of Navalism Europe

[Borys]

Ahoj!

Question:  What effect would a continental Norman state still in France have on the Lower Countries?

LOL!
Ask this question at the AlternativeHistory board and you'll get a 100 page thread!
The possibilities are endless!
My first thought was that, with an independent Normandy, France would not be able to annex Artois and other parts of the Netherlands. But as we are using the OTL border, shaped by centuries of French aggression, this evidently has not happened in Nverse.
So, maybe Artois and Vestvlaandern have been wallowing under the yoke of French occupation for 150 years less, i.e. from about 1800, and not 1659?

Continuing this line of thought, i.e. Normandy somehow weakening French aggression, this again explains a stronger Netherlands and weaker Britain. In the late XVIIth century Holland dropped out of the race for dominance of the seas because they were too busy fighting the French, they traded territory and trade agreements with England for its assistance on the continent.

Borys

[ctwaterman]

Ahoj!

Question:  What effect would a continental Norman state still in France have on the Lower Countries?

LOL!
Ask this question at the AlternativeHistory board and you'll get a 100 page thread!
The possibilities are endless!
My first thought was that, with an independent Normandy, France would not be able to annex Artois and other parts of the Netherlands. But as we are using the OTL border, shaped by centuries of French aggression, this evidently has not happened in Nverse.
So, maybe Artois and Vestvlaandern have been wallowing under the yoke of French occupation for 150 years less, i.e. from about 1800, and not 1659?

Continuing this line of thought, i.e. Normandy somehow weakening French aggression, this again explains a stronger Netherlands and weaker Britain. In the late XVIIth century Holland dropped out of the race for dominance of the seas because they were too busy fighting the French, they traded territory and trade agreements with England for its assistance on the continent.

Borys

Excellent questions and excellent answers....

The Impact of a less dominant France until just before and just after the French Revolution and the Napolionic Wars are very very interesting.   It explains in Navalism as Borys points out a more powerful Dutch Kingdoms.

So Im going to look at creating a timeline for the UNK I will try to put important events like the New Swiss spin off on that time line.   But overall I think the 30 years war would have been alot bloodier if for no other reason then the oposition of the French with the backing of the Normans. 

Over all Expect the UNK to be a strong Constitutional Monarchy.   It will have the "English" Norman Bills of Right, from the time of William and Mary as well as the Haibeus Corpus act also from the late 1680's.   There will be in all likelihood atleast 2 possibly 3 different parliments one in the America's, One in Great Britain possibly devided into English [Including Wales] and a Scottish Parliment.   A High Degree of Democracy with a Central Government still partially filled with Royal Appointees approved by Parliment.

Religion:  I see the Reformation still appealing to large parts of England with many of the Persecuted Protestant Groups first moving to the Americas and then latter possibly to Australia and New Switzerland [Yes Foxy your getting the Puritans  :P ]  So the UNK will be slightly more Catholic then historical I just created more work for myself as I need to create a few more Arch-Diocese and Cardinals in the UNK.  However by now religious toleration and freedom should be guaranteed.

Voting:  At the moment I believe that is still limited to 21 years of age and landowners however recent changes might have allowed for Wealthy non Landowners Ie... Rich Industrialist who dont own large tracts of land to Vote.  I am sure their are going to be movements to give the Vote to all males and heck even females in the near future.... ;)

[damocles]

Note that with a huge Islamic and Buddhist NOI population in the United Provinces (The Moslem Reform Party is part of the van Rijn Conservative Coalition) along with a large Catholic population in what is in our RTL Belgium, the description of the Kingdom of Netherlands as "Protestant" is somewhat strange here. Its more likely that you could call the KoN a secular state.

RL Belgium is Catholic because the Spanish (Habsburgs) held on to it. Here, either there were no Spanish (Habsburgs) to hold on to the South Provinces to begin with, or the Rebellion was more successful. And the Netherlands ended up 100% Calvinist.

Okay, then, that still does not change the NOI and Buddhist components. There may still be closet Catholics in Belgian provinces as well. Witness present day RTL Scotland and England, where the dominant state churches created a stubborn and rebellious "underclass" that still exists in regional enclaves.

     

[Ithekro]

The Islamic and Buddist groups would all be in the colonies though, and might not be represented (fairly or not) in the homelands.

[damocles]

The Islamic and Buddist groups would all be in the colonies though, and might not be represented (fairly or not) in the homelands.

True that CT, true that, Might not be that many immigrants yet. Still 46 million of them in the NOI, and I have tried to make them more "Dutch" than my predecessor did.

Not colonies, but provinces as evidenced by economic investment and allocation.

[Laertes]

Certainly in Britain, where I live, the massive Asian population is a postwar phenomenon. They've become such a fact of life that it's odd to read media from the 1950s, wherein people were being utterly shocked by the novel concept of migration from the colonies to the mother country.

Since the Navalism world has arguably never had the massive social upheaval caused by even a single world war, let alone two, it may still be strong enough in its Old World / New World divide not to have had migration. On the other hand, the governments all seem suspiciously unchauvinistic, which makes one wonder what their internal political dialogue is like.

[Carthaginian]

Oh... I can assure you that there are several nations that are quite affected by a superiority complex.

It's just that economies here are rather small, and there is little room for 'colonial expansion' as compared to OTL. Thus, the potential for a lot of conflict as the 'civilized world' takes on 'the burden of bringing the savages out of the stone age' is far diminished... and with it, a lot of potential tension for starting nationalist conflict.

[Ithekro]

That and there are fewer "savages" in the New World, though I suppose at the time of first contact the Europeans may have been slightly more technologically advanced than Rohan, but only because Rohan had either stagnated or had to rebuild itself up from the stone age after Mt. Doom (Yellowstone Supervolcano) blew the place apart.  One imagines Rohan being basically like the films at contact...knowledge of gunpowder, but not yet used with guns or cannon (use of it as a weapon was a stygma I imagine from the legends of Saruman and Helm's Deep).  Up to European levels of metalurgy...more or less.  A surviving population of native horses (which became extinct historically...probably because they were eaten or something by the natives)  Naval technology would have been a little behind but good enough to get goods and troops from Rohan to Central American Gondor.

One imagines that after the wake up call from Cortes and others, Rohan would have begun experimenting with making guns and cannons and certainly after the arrival of the Pirate Harlock, they would have more viable warships armed with cannon to fight to Spanish at sea.

Alternate History is a weave of interconneting problems and solution.  Adding fantasy makes it harder.  It is what I warned about when we started this things up originally...and also why I made Rohan...the most normal of the fantasy type coutries I could think of at the time.  They themselves had no magic...they were more or less normal humans...the Old English pratically.

[Logi]

On the other hand, the governments all seem suspiciously unchauvinistic, which makes one wonder what their internal political dialogue is like.

The Republic of China can not yet speak of being nationally superior to foreign nations in a time of weakest and separation, it is simply to aware of it's own weaknesses.

But you note they often speak of being the shining city upon hilltop, indicate they do have a passive sort of superiority complex. However this superiority does not come out of being Chinese etc, but the social and political institutions that make it a model to others, in their own opinions of course.


But I agree, there is less room for colonial expansion here compared to OTL, those there is far less chance for a civilized nation to bring the savages out of the stone age, etc. IMO, the greatest nationalist conflict that has occurred thus far, is the Chinese Civil War (simply because it's a civil war), or maybe perhaps the destruction of New Zion as it is fighting against the destruction of their whole state.

[Kaiser Kirk]

So what does people think......????
I am completely open to changes but I fully intend to keep the United Norman Kingdoms [America, England, Scotland, Wales, and the Principality of Azores] as a Constitutional Monarchy with the monarchy have just a tad bit more real power then it did in historic UK.

My question in relation to Scotch-Irish-English timelines is what happens to the Jacobites. If William of Orange didn't succeed, then James II wasn't tossed out? Or perhaps he never unified all of Scotland and England ?

OTL, the "current" Jacobite heir would be Bavaria's Crown Prince Rupprecht, which is why I have some interest in if that's even a valid claim in Navalism.

Also, how did the Highlands become Dutch?.

But how does everyone thing that the Reformation effected their countries.  Please Europe only.....

Charles

The Kingdom of Bavaria is mainly Catholic, with some Lutherans in the north. The Wittelsbachs are staunch Catholics.
The Kingdom of Wurttemberg is Lutheran as is it's monarchs.
The Kingdom of Saxony is primarily Lutheran, except the Duchy of Silesia. The ruling family is historically Catholic.
The Grand Duchy of Baden is mixed Catholic and Lutheran, the Grand Dukes are Lutheran.
The Grand Duchy of Hesse-Darmstadt is Lutheran
The County Palantine is Lutheran
Tyrol and Friuli are Catholic.
The Swiss Cantons had a reformation and counter reformation. The Cantons are split between Catholic and Protestant, with some Old Catholics.
There is also a minor Jewish population throughout.

The Thirty Years war wrecked havoc on these countries, except the Swiss.

The current Kingdom recognizes 'People of the Book' as valid religions. To prevent internal conflicts the state is primarily secular but recognizes a strong role for religion.   Two Catholic, Two Lutheran, and One Jewish official have seats reserved in the Senate.  

[Desertfox]

I don't think there are any protestants in Bavarian Switzerland, that's where I got my chunk of Swiss from. There was a Swiss Civil War in the early 1800's which ended in the Protestants going to New Switzerland.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I don't think there are any protestants in Bavarian Switzerland, that's where I got my chunk of Swiss from. There was a Swiss Civil War in the early 1800's which ended in the Protestants going to New Switzerland.

That would be fine. OTL they fought internally after the reformation, but then were at peace. In Navalism,  I knew some had left, I didn't realize it was a complete migration by ~half the pop. 

[Ithekro]

Got to have some Swiss for "New Switzerland".

[Guinness]

I've split all the talk of the OTL CSA, etc. to a new topic here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5268.0

[Carthaginian]

... moved to conform to G.'s wishes :)