1920 Rules Changes (advanced draft)

[ctwaterman]

- waive the BP costs for Kirk to upgrade,

I'd like to clarify that my basic objection is to the implementation of the new rules as proposed.  Bavaria can upgrade, or I believe I have a simple case to go to the mods and say "See, if in 1908-1914 I just had kept these Corps as reserve instead of Active, I could have used the surplus BP I had back then to build the airfields to the new standards".

I really feel the goal should be to make this implementation as painless as possible and would much rather see people wind up with more infrastructure than they paid for, than have to upgrade the infrastructure that - up until now- they've been using just fine. 

One alternate that just bubbled up- HY1/20...scrap all current Aircraft and Airfields at 100% $ value, and allow purchase of the "new rule" units sans BP.   Looking at Japan's airforce of 8400, that's something like $16 expended on aircraft alone, why should he loose any of that value? Just let him translate it into $16 worth of 1920 value.

Well he isnt loosing $16 in aircraft his aircraft are now worth a total of... lets see roughly 13 groups of Single Engined Aircraft as an low estimate means
$97.5 and 19.5 BP if he were to scrap them all he would get $ 14.62 and 2.95 BP honestly people planes just became extremely valuable.

I kind of like the current systems that has been proposed.   It seems to work the only problem is even people like myself with a bit over 1100 Aircraft only built a total of 9 Airfields for them.   As Guinness pointed out nobody is going to loose aircraft because of the change they will just have to spend some money in 1920 Hy1 and Hy2 to fix there lack of Aircraft infrastructure.

And while I agree grass strips are the norm even in WWII for single engined aircraft the repair buildings, barracks and such were not tents in most cases on the permanent airfields.

I should know I lived for 2 years out of a 1940's Era Barracks at RAF Bentwaters in the UK.   The Strip was paved in I think 1943 as a fighter strip and Auxilary landing strip for B-17.

[damocles]

1. A machine shop, bomb dump, and fuel dump is infrastructure. You can put men in tents, and you can use grass fields, you can even put tools and parts on trains or trucks, but you have to put the three items (for bombers), I named, into protected berm shelters (or you should) to keep the happy fighter pilots from the other side from Dawn Patrolling your sorry carcass.

2. Note that with (1) single engine fighters don't really require such a heavy investment, as the named items can be stored on trucks or railroad cars. That way you can use a simple cow pasture for the basic planes.

D.    

[maddox]

About all planes of "our era" can use grass strips to land and take off.

But after a few days of heavy operations and a tad of rain, the grass airstrip becomes a hogs heaven of mud.

Now, France is about the Nverse country with the least planes around, and only 2 military airbases (Gravelines and Marseilles).
But those are BIG, and yes, paved strips, especialy with the Dune D11's comming from the factory. (Gravelines has 2 UNK corps attached to the JAC base there, just to mention how big it is)

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well he isnt loosing $16 in aircraft his aircraft are now worth a total of... lets see roughly 13 groups of Single Engined Aircraft as an low estimate means
$97.5 and 19.5 BP if he were to scrap them all he would get $ 14.62 and 2.95 BP honestly people planes just became extremely valuable.

I still find flaw in the idea that folks who played by the extant rules are now expected to play catch up. In this case he looses ~$1.48 of value and gains ~2.95BP.  Hence why I'd rather see the full $16 granted and BP waived.
However I realize I'm starting to simply argue, so I'll shut up and just stew on this.

[Blooded]

Sorry for not being around much but In trying to follow this I have gotten lost.

What are the current plans for 1920 rules for aircraft and airfields? Why is felt that a change is needed?

For what it is worth... I feel Russia has the longest and most consistant history of Aviation infrastructure. Currently(end of 1st half of 1919) Russia has 1100 Aeroplanes and 550 Seaplanes on 19 Airfields and 8 Seaplane Bases(at 3 different levels of ability). Builtup over a long period(1st a 1910 airfield level, then upgrade to 1914 then upgraded to 1916).

I viewed airfields as 1910= several grass strips in a localized area with a few shacks and a fuel truck; 1914= several grass strips in a localized area with some barracks and a tiny wood control tower plus a few hangers for repairs and a few vehicles for support(firetruck, fuel, fun); 1916= Aerodrome of somesort with many metal hangers, water towers, AA more and better buildings plus several grass strips in a localized area. Each individual airstrip holding a squadron of 12-20 single engined aircraft and each Aerodrome holding a Regiment(48 or so).

I had always considered that 1 unit of aircraft needed 1 unit of airfields. Unfortunately, this was not stated in the rules. But simple logic should have stated that you cant have aircraft fly without support(airfield). Perhaps a few could be stationed at a single location for brief periods but expecting more is too much.

Because aircraft will become so powerful in the years too come we MUST have airfields built and their locations known. It will only cause arguments if they are not.

the only way to be fair is that all past money and BP spent should be totaled up and respent on 'new' units. That would allow Walter and Logi to restructure their airforces in a more realistic manner.

[Guinness]

What are the current plans for 1920 rules for aircraft and airfields? Why is felt that a change is needed?

You hit on some of these issues yourself. Here's the rationale:

1. Today's system of buying (essentially) individual aircraft is ponderous and leading to excessive beancounting as number of aircraft increases.
2. Today's system for maintenance is not consistent with the rest of our units, and indeed is largely ignored by many players
3. Today's system does not explicitly enumerate how many aircraft an airfield can support leading to huge number of aircraft being supported by small numbers of fields.
4. When simming an action, we're already banding aircraft into units for purpose of simulating many times, so this will codify and standardize that.

So the idea is to pull it in line with other units, and to map out the progression for the future for more ore less the rest of the era of the game. And yes, the decision has been to use BP equivalency for transitioning airfields, as detailed above. I'll be updating the rules for 1920 real soon now. I think to ease the transition, we'll allow either ruleset to be applied in 1920 so that people who've already done 1920 reports need not redo them, and those involved in wars aren't hit with this mid-war.

[Blooded]

Converting to the 1920 Aircraft rules is relatively easy. I really think all nations could and should have this done for 1st half-1920. There is no reason to delay. I can help anyone you would like assistance.

From my news-altered a bit 'I redid The Aircraft into 1920 style. The decrease in Airfleet size is tremendous, it will be even moreso for those who did not invest in infrastructure. I had spent close to $75/7.5BP from 1907 to 1919 on my Airforce(including those spendy Dirigible Hangers), which now only consists of 1000 planes(was around 2000) and that required removing a few Airfields to raise the extra cash for another 400 or so of those planes.'

In the Chinese conflict. MK, Netherlands and now Russia(just joining in) have already converted.

An example RRC Airforce could be:

Had in 1919(approximately)
49x1914 Brigades/Regiments
26x1916 Brigades/Regiments  (some est. 7000 Aircraft)
12x1916 Airfields
The total spent on RRCs Airforce was $54.1675/6 BP (this includes an estimated upkeep of $6.6675) leaving $47.5/6BP

#1: Could have in 1920(straight conversion):

12x L-2 Aerodromes-10 Squadrons each($3/0.5BP)  $36.0/6.0BP  120 Squdrons max
50x 1914 Squadrons($0.2/0.04BP)                 $10.0/2.0BP
25x 1916 Squadrons($0.3/0.06BP)                 $ 7.5/1.5BP  est. 1500+ Aircraft

Total                                           $53.5/9.5BP         

#2: Could have in 1920(trying to reduce BP needed):

6x L-0 Aerodromes-1 Squadron each($1/0.0BP)     $ 6.0/0.0BP
3x L-1 Aerodromes-5 Squadrons each($2/0.25BP)   $ 6.0/0.75BP
6x L-2 Aerodromes-10 Squadrons each($3/0.5BP)   $18.0/3.0BP    81 Squadrons max
50x 1914 Squadrons($0.2/0.04BP)                 $10.0/2.0BP
25x 1916 Squadrons($0.3/0.06BP)                 $ 7.5/1.5BP    est. 1500+ Aircraft

Total                                           $47.5/7.25BP(only need 1.25BP to even it up)
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The main change is a 66-80% reduction in force levels. Instead of hundreds of aircraft being used it becomes dozens(just change Brigades to Squadrons in the storylines). This is much better realistically anyhow. RRC and Japanese force levels outstrip most WW2 combatants in 1940(Japan in 1941 had around 3500 frontline Aircraft-that is about the same in France 1918). RRC has spent only 5 Corps(2 Battleships-one sim half) worth of cash on building the worlds largest Airforce. As seen above he would still likely have the worlds largest(1500+ Aircraft). Losses would be taken as a % not straight across numbers(say 100 lost becomes 24).

There have been some issues with the Chinese Air theater that I need to address as well, but I need to visit the Dentists ATM.  :-X  :'(

[Blooded]

Aircraft Examples and HP stats:
1914 types: Early War(1914-1915): 100HP; HP,Low Range,1 MG; Scouts-Fighters and Light Bomber Types
Fokker EI to EIII
Vickers GunBus
---------------
1916 Types: Mid War(1916-1917): 150HP; 1-2 MG; Various Main Types-most of the famous models come in this period
Nieuport 17
Albatros DII
Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter
SPAD VII
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1918 Types: Late War(1918-1920): 200HP; 2 MG; Specialist Types(Torpedo,Ground Attack,etc.), 1st use of all metal skin
Fokker DVII
Sopwith Cuckoo
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Engine HP:
Mid 1916-SPAD VI-150hp
Mid 1916-Albatros DII-160hp
Late 1916-Albatros DIII-170hp
Early 1917-Se5a-150hp
Mid 1917-Fokker Dr1-110hp
Mid 1917-Sopwith Camel-130hp
Mid 1918-Sopwith Cuckoo-200hp
early 1918 -Fokker DVII-170hp

Yes, I know bombers had some bigger engines, and there are always exceptions. I am just pointing out the framework we should be using.
And what is with the fascination with hindsight .50 cals and 20mm? They were not even developed until this time frame, yet Nverse has them universally distributed by now. 37mm and 40mm were small calibre AA as far as I can see through the 20s.
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Proper Torpedo Bombers belong with the 1917 Tech -The 1918 Cuckoo had a range of 335miles(combat radius is approx. 1/4-1/3 of Range)ie. 100 miles. Only RRC Airfield on the coast is at Hong Kong. No TBs should be attacking in the Yellow Sea. Let alone with 18" Torps.

Fighters of the period also have about the same range(300 miles-And once again, combat radius is around 1/3 of range-so 100 Miles). MK does not have the range to defend frontlines except maybe Shantung province. RRC has many more close to the front, 3 or 4 of which could have been flooded out. 3 also seem to be in areas of ground combat, they likely would have been targets. Combat would be deep raids getting interceptions if lucky. Likely get some comparisons to China-Japan 1937+. Only with crappy aircraft.

Aircraft have only recently been an active part of the MK and KON military(1919). Much time should have been just in training. Fortunately their Airbases are far from the front. RRC should have air superiority throughout most of 1919. Unfortunately most of RRCs aircraft are old obsolescent 1914 types. Perhaps that is why the MK RR Guns have had little effect? November will see modern Russian Aircraft defending the Quingdao Area.

Possible developments?  ???  Lots of Barrage and Observation Ballons. Lots of AA Guns. AA volley rifle fire?  ;D Parasite Bombers? Very heavy defensive armament? Airwatchers(like Battle of Britain with telegraph)-sounds ineffective? Greater use of Air 'Horns' listening devices to detect approaching bombers?

Anyhow, I just wanted to point out some things I have noticed regarding Air Combat and stats in the Chinese War.

[damocles]

Aircraft Examples and HP stats:
1914 types: Early War(1914-1915): 100HP; HP,Low Range,1 MG; Scouts-Fighters and Light Bomber Types
Fokker EI to EIII
Vickers GunBus

---------------
More or less correct.

1916 Types: Mid War(1916-1917): 150HP; 1-2 MG; Various Main Types-most of the famous models come in this period
Nieuport 17
Albatros DII
Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter
SPAD VII

This is basically the cutoff, where the KoN Fokker top of the line are now.
--------------

1918 Types: Late War(1918-1920): 200HP; 2 MG; Specialist Types(Torpedo,Ground Attack,etc.), 1st use of all metal skin
Fokker DVII
Sopwith Cuckoo

This is about where top of the line, in Japan and Russia is at.
---------------------

Engine HP:
Mid 1916-SPAD VI-150hp
Mid 1916-Albatros DII-160hp
Late 1916-Albatros DIII-170hp
Early 1917-Se5a-150hp
Mid 1917-Fokker Dr1-110hp
Mid 1917-Sopwith Camel-130hp
Mid 1918-Sopwith Cuckoo-200hp
early 1918 -Fokker DVII-170hp

The kwatt range of about 170 kW may seem excessive for 1914-1916 aircraft, but I justify on the basis in story, that right from the start the KoN had engine problems with their aero-engines and put more effort into their Fokker designs' engine plants to reduce the crashes.   

Yes, I know bombers had some bigger engines, and there are always exceptions. I am just pointing out the framework we should be using.

And what is with the fascination with hindsight .50 cals and 20mm? They were not even developed until this time frame, yet Nverse has them universally distributed by now. 37mm and 40mm were small calibre AA as far as I can see through the 20s.

I use 8 mm Brownings.
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Proper Torpedo Bombers belong with the 1917 Tech -The 1918 Cuckoo had a range of 335miles(combat radius is approx. 1/4-1/3 of Range)ie. 100 miles. Only RRC Airfield on the coast is at Hong Kong. No TBs should be attacking in the Yellow Sea. Let alone with 18" Torps.

AFAIK, I'm restricted to bombs.

Fighters of the period also have about the same range(300 miles-And once again, combat radius is around 1/3 of range-so 100 Miles). MK does not have the range to defend frontlines except maybe Shantung province. RRC has many more [bases] close to the front, 3 or 4 of which could have been flooded out. 3 also seem to be in areas of ground combat, they likely would have been targets. Combat would be deep raids getting interceptions if lucky. Likely get some comparisons to China-Japan 1937+. Only with crappy aircraft.

Most MK types are fighters. Interception and CAS are the primary missions. The same goes for the DVK. At most the MK bases deployed are pastures and grass fields forward with the main air depots further back.

Aircraft have only recently been an active part of the MK and KON military(1919). Much time should have been just in training. Fortunately their Airbases are far from the front. RRC should have air superiority throughout most of 1919. Unfortunately most of RRCs aircraft are old obsolescent 1914 types. Perhaps that is why the MK RR Guns have had little effect? November will see modern Russian Aircraft defending the Quingdao Area.

The KoN  have been building the Luchtmacht for about six of the half years. The MK has about three of the half years-most of that has been in training.

Possible developments?  ???  Lots of Barrage and Observation Balloons. Lots of AA Guns. AA volley rifle fire?  ;D Parasite Bombers? Very heavy defensive armament? Airwatchers (like Battle of Britain with telegraph)-sounds ineffective? Greater use of Air 'Horns' listening devices to detect approaching bombers?

KoN Civil Defense Forces in effect since 1917. MK equivalent built after van Seik got there and organized it. No ear trumpets yet. (working on it).

Anyhow, I just wanted to point out some things I have noticed regarding Air Combat and stats in the Chinese War.

Noted. It has looked more like the French front WW I in the air than you would expect because of all the blasted RRC aircraft. Its a miracle that there is an MK air force left.

As for training, well I included a hefty wartime training base as part of the MK OOB.