N4 Question: Size

[miketr]

Keep in mind that with a 1885 start date a 12,000 or 13,000 ton light displacement battleship is a very large battleship.  As with all questions this is not binding on mods but more for information.  Also a new economic system might be used which would do away with BP and so would have equivalent industrial strength.

[Jefgte]

20 000t per year for Inca Empire are correct
& 1885 is a cool date, I like to draw too Casemates Battleships  :D


Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

15 would be about the best size for 1885, I think.
You'd have an 'up and coming' economy that could build a lot of things... but not one so overpowered as to make everything easy.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I'm pushing on 18 ATM. I don't feel any BP-crunch.
From 1885 to 1920 is 45 years. Adding one BP every 4 years, or 0,5 every 2 years (i.e. c.18$ per quarter) is not particularly impressive.
IMO 10 BP in 1885 is plenty!
Bors

[TexanCowboy]

I like 15 BP...just because it allows for more ship's. The historical rate of a BB, a AC, and a CL a year is historical, or a BB, 2 CL's, and 2 sloop's, etc...is good for 15 BP.

[Guinness]

If we are using history as our metric, we'll be starting with looking at all shipbuilding worldwide for a given period.

Let's keep in mind that historically by 1910 or so, only 5 or 6 nations could credibly build large warships. If we take that total capacity and divide it equally among 15 nations or so, it's going to result in reasonably small capacity per nation. Even if we multiply that by 1.5x or 2x, you still might not get the amount of shipbuilding you are advocating.

At this early stage, we've got some choices here. We could just decide to have a lot more ships built than seems "historical", for instance. I'm not 100% in favor of that idea. We might choose to begin with a world where large shipbuilding, BBs and large ACs, is centralized among about 6 nations, and then let things develop. If we do that, it would be in conjunction with an economic system that encourages use of a good percentage of peactime shipbuilding capacity for export. I find the idea of a very active world arms export market and the attendant role-playing to be very interesting, personally.

Today, only Walter's Japan and Kirk's Bavaria really engage in export shipbuilding on a consistent serious scale, and they both do so at the expense of not building much for their own navies. It seems to me would could be doing more and having more fun playing with this aspect of our world.

The other thing to remember is: in 1885 even the big industrial powers were only a shadow of what they would become WRT to heavy construction including ships. Where we're considering starting, I think it's best if just about everyone starts a lot smaller than we have in Nverse3 1919, and then everyone has the opportunity to build up their capacity over time. Adding to our economic concepts a little to account for ideas of resource exploitation and overseas trade may help with economic "customization" to this end, allowing for competition between nations in the economic realm as well as in military construction.

[P3D]

If we are using history as our metric, we'll be starting with looking at all shipbuilding worldwide for a given period.

Let's keep in mind that historically by 1910 or so, only 5 or 6 nations could credibly build large warships. If we take that total capacity and divide it equally among 15 nations or so, it's going to result in reasonably small capacity per nation. Even if we multiply that by 1.5x or 2x, you still might not get the amount of shipbuilding you are advocating.

[picky]
UK, France, Italy, Spain, Germany, A-H, US, Russia and Japan. Netherlands and Sweden also had the capacity. Canada, Australia and Belgium could've if they'd been forced to.
Also cut up US into, say, two.
11(+4) not 6. I envision 15 players.
[/picky]

[miketr]

Spain and Japan both required material aid from UK industry well into the dreadnought era.

Sweden never built an armored ship bigger than a Heavy Cruiser.

Netherlands might or might not have been to build a big ship but its rather telling that both pre-ww1 and pre-ww2 they were looking to foreign yards for material help.

Russia / Soviet Union also required help but not to the degree that Spain or Japan did; if they accepted building fewer ships they could have been fine.  They at least had the naval industry of Italy or Austria-Hungary.

So we really had, IMHO, UK, France, Germany, Austria, US and Russia in the 19th century.  20th century we add a few names to the list but some with restrictions.

If we accept that we are going to have 1 to 3 big NPC nations and 15 PC nations we are looking at least a doubling of world economic strength / ship building capability.

[TexanCowboy]

And since I'm the only one who want's Russia, that is good for me.... :)

Let me sum this up. We have, capable of building a BB:

-US
-UK
-France
-Germany
-Austria
-Russia(Would be capable internally if a smaller fleet. I propose limiting Russia to the Ural's, with more of Poland, as Peter the Great sends the 50,000 men to the Europian front as opposed to Siberia)
-Italy
-Japan
-Spain(if portugal was added)
-Sweden(With more territory, Norway, Denmark, etc.)

Ok, that makes 10. Decent enough. I think the big nations should not be NPC's, just too make the world more realistic.

[Logi]

I wanted Teutonic Order/Russia :-X

I'm not sure Japan or Spain was capable of great shipbuilding in those times, ~1885.

[TexanCowboy]

I called Russia, specifically, in a mod PM, and in most of the posts.

You can have Teutonic Order/East Germany. We can be rivals. But I get the Muscovite Empire! _{Actually a good idea, rival's and all. I have St.Petersburg and Finland, but you have most of the rest of the Baltic.}

[miketr]

Guys we are not even sure how nations are to be setup etc in N4 so its beyond early to make calls on specific nations.

[Carthaginian]

Guys we are not even sure how nations are to be setup etc in N4 so its beyond early to make calls on specific nations.

One way to figure it out is to start letting players describe what they want, Mike.
I, for one, refuse to be told you WILL have this, and nothing else.
Half the fun is getting to decide what kind of nation that you have. It probably won't be the size/power level that it is in OTL, but it is useful for people 'calling' the kind of culture that they intend to have.

In short- players should be DESIGNING the nations, mods should not be DELEGATING them.
If that kind of talk starts, you can believe that a lot of players will loose interest, very quickly.

[miketr]

I am not suggesting you get a specific nation and like but pointing out we have no clue what the setup conditions are to be.  Roleplaying ideas are fine but I recall at least one statement from someone to the effect of they want X nation or else.

One idea being kicked around is that the world would be divided up into different areas, some type of selection order created and players pick an area for their nation.  If we go with this selection process then pre-setup "dibs" calls mean nothing.