Richmond Naval Treaty Talks

[Carthaginian]

*sent to the respective embassies of the nations in communication with the Confederate States of America*

To all who bear witness to these proceedings,
Greetings, and let it hereby be known that the Confederate States of America, in Congress Assembled, do extend to you severally and collectively an invitation to attend a conference in Richmond, Virgina relating to the current world-wide naval arms race and it's possible implications to our nations and their economies and possible methods by which the impact of said naval arms race might be controlled and its undesirable effects be eliminated.

Approved by Congress and signed by my hand, this day of June 15, 1919

Woodrow Wilson

*attached is a copy of the draft resolution after the initial debating*

GENERAL PROVISIONS RELATING TO THE LIMITATION OF NAVAL ARMAMENT

Article I

Any armed vessel in excess of 15,000 standard tonnes displacement shall be considered a capital ship for the purposes of this agreement.

Article II

No capital ship of more than 38,000 standard tonnes displacement shall be constructed or acquired in/for/by the contracting powers.

Article III

A capital ship with a designed top speed of not more than 24 knots shall/may be fitted with guns up to 16.5"/42cm.

Article IV

A capital ship with a designed top speed of more than 24 knots shall not be fitted with guns in excess of 15"/38cm.

Article V

Any armed vessel in excess of 5,000 standard tonnes displacement, but under 15,000 standard tonnes displacement shall be considered a (whatever we call it) for the purposes of this agreement.

Article VI

Any vessel so covered under Article V shall carry no naval rifles larger than 27.5cm/10.83".

Article VII

If during the term of the present Treaty the requirements of the national security of any Contracting Power in respect of naval defense are, in the opinion of that Power, materially affected by any change of circumstances, the Contracting Powers will, at the request of such Power, meet in conference with a view to the reconsideration of the provisions of the Treaty and its amendment by mutual agreement.
In view of possible technical and scientific developments, the Confederate States, after consultation with the other Contracting Powers, shall arrange for a conference of all the Contracting Powers which shall convene as soon as possible after the expiration of eight years from the coming into force of the present Treaty to consider what changes, if any, in the Treaty may be necessary to meet such developments.

Article VII

The present Treaty shall remain in force until December 31st, 1935, and in case none of the Contracting Powers shall have given notice two years before that date of its intention to terminate the treaty, it shall continue in force until the expiration of two years from the date on which notice of termination shall be given by one of the Contracting Powers, whereupon the Treaty shall terminate as regards all the Contracting Powers. Such notice shall be communicated in writing to the Government of the Confederate States, which shall immediately transmit a certified copy of the notification to the other Powers and inform them of the date on which it was received. The notice shall be deemed to have been given and shall take effect on that date. In the event of notice of termination being given by the Government of the Confederate States, such notice shall be given to the diplomatic representatives at Washington of the other Contracting Powers, and the notice shall be deemed to have been given and shall take effect on the date of the communication made to the said diplomatic representatives.
Within one year of the date on which a notice of termination by any Power has taken effect, all the Contracting Powers shall meet in conference.

[Carthaginian]

No. If you do something like this, it should be all or nothing. There is no point limiting overall size and such, if nations like the ESC can still abuse it by building their monsters.

Carriers. A aircraft carrier is defined by

An aircraft carrier is defined as a surface vessel of war with a

standard displacement greater than 600 tons (610 metric tons)

designed for the specific purpose of carrying aircraft. It must

be so constructed that aircraft can be launched therefrom and

landed thereon, and not designed and constructed for carrying a

more powerful armament than that allowed to it under Part 3,

Chapter B, Article VII below. Any vessel with a standard

displacement exceeding 600 tons (610 metric tons) and so

constructed or reconstructed that aircraft can be landed thereon,

shall be considered an aircraft-carrier, for the purposes of this

treaty.

Uhm, as no one can actually meet these qualifications in N-verse ATM, that is moot as well, TC.

Again, I'm asking to keep this as IC as possible.
I'm starting an OoC thread in the Naval Discussion forum now.

[Tanthalas]

The Mark would agree to this treaty in Theory, however we would call for a Grandfather clasue to be included allowing for the compleation of ships already under construction at the time of implamentation.  Also the Mark would view the proposed 50,000 ton limit as to great refering instead to the original 35,000 ton light proposal as apropriat.

Ships for Carying these newfangled Kites should be limited to no more than 14,000 tons light in the marks opinion these experimental ships are sure to be a failure based on the lack of ability to actualy threten a modern warship.

[Sachmle]

IC:
We could see the value of this, however as our most likely enemies in future conflict are, in order of industrial might:

East Sea Confederation - 24.5BP $177.20
Orange Republic - 22BP $173.38 (1917 numbers)
Kingdom of the Netherlands - 19BP $147.45 (1916 numbers)
Republic of New Switzerland - 18BP $149.00
Kingdom of Greater Bavaria and Switzerland - 12.5BP $81.27
Kingdom of Maoria - 10BP $80.70
Reformist Republic of China - 8.5BP $122.50
Empire of Firanj - 6.5BP $64.73 (1917 numbers)

None of these powers has the material nor industrial capacity AT THIS TIME to completely out build our own capacity, 21BP $175.41 to a substantial level.

[Carthaginian]

The Chair recognizes the Honorable representative of the D.K.B. and understands his concerns.

The Chair reiterates that the desire of the Confederate States, by suggesting this treaty, is not to limit fleet size in any fashion. Indeed, we recognize that maintaining a fleet sufficient to defend a nation's sovereign territory might soon be in jeopardy if all nations are pushed to compete with the current pace of capital ship growth.

Should a nation wish to remain competitive in the building of capital ships, nations such as the DKB- which possess a large area of sea to police- might soon find themselves with too few ships to police that territory. By limiting the size of individual ships, but by not limiting the size of overall fleets, such a nation will be able to build competitive ships in sufficient numbers to cover all it's claimed territory effectively.

[Guinness]

In the interest of role play when the Ottomans catch word of this effort, they officially will neglect to respond. Privately, their response is likely to be "if the Iberians might participate, we'd be all for it, for obvious reasons".

Also, an OOC question: is Wilson spearheading this personally?

(EDIT: I split this post up and put much of it in the Naval Discussion thread on this subject)

[miketr]

The Ambassador for the Iberian Empire, Miguel Ángel de la Vega, has a brief statement, "My government received no notice of this treaty and as such I have received no instructions from Madrid as to how act with respect to it.  I will say this much I doubt that my government will view this treaty idea with much favor as its normal to have talks and then work towards a treaty text not present a document and ask thoughts.  Till I receive instructions from my government I will observe."

[Carthaginian]

This was an invitation to discuss, gentlemen, with a draft sent out.
It IS NOT a unilateral declaration that the Confederacy wants the treaty as written enforced now.

Discussion is absolutely open, and all suggestions and debatable points are welcome to help force a final document that is acceptable to all.

[miketr]

This was an invitation to discuss, gentlemen, with a draft sent out.
It IS NOT a unilateral declaration that the Confederacy wants the treaty as written enforced now.

Discussion is absolutely open, and all suggestions and debatable points are welcome to help force a final document that is acceptable to all.

"Excellency I have received no instructions from my government all the same.   I do have some questions what is a 'capital ship'?  The term is used several times in the document and their displacement would be limited to 40,000 tons but at the same time article IV speaks of a 'vessel of war' and its displacement would be limited to 15,000 tons.  I am unclear as to what this document is trying to limit.  In general I understand that the Confederate States wishes to limit overall size of warships but to what end?"  Miguel Ángel de la Vega

[Carthaginian]

Senior de la Vega, Thank you for pointing out this problem with wording.
The Chair will clarify:

A 'capital ship' is assumed to be ANY SHIP displacing more than 15,000t, however armed.
This vessel might mount any calibre of weapon, in any number, up to the draft limit calibre of 16.5".

A 'vessel of war' is just that- a vessel specifically designed and constructed for the primary purpose of carrying battle to an opposing force. This vessel might mount any calibre of weapon, in any number, up to the limits imposed upon it by its size.



The Confederate States sees a dreadful problem developing in the building of warships- the building of ever larger designs will make it difficult to create fighting forces which can both match the firepower of an enemy fleet and effectively cover the entirety of a nation's sovereign territory. By limiting the overall tonnage of individual vessels of war, it is our hope to prevent any one nation from loosing to large of a percentage of its ability to defend itself in battle with the loss of a single ship.

Essentially, we seek to prevent the proliferation of the 'super ship,' thus preventing the crippling of a nation's economy and defensive capability in the event of the loss of a single vessel- whether by accident or by combat.

[Desertfox]

OOC Since NS doesn't particularly like the CSA... Oh and pay no attention to the man in black in the back of the room...

IC The Swiss Ambassador in the CSA thinks this idea is ridiculous and stupid and will not waste time attending, he has more important things to do like chasing southern belles...

[miketr]

De la Vega makes some notes and asks, "Excellency the answer you gave with respect to 'vessel of war', I don't understand the distinction.  Yes they are to be limited to 15,000 tons and 'capital ships' are to be larger than 15,000 tons but beyond those two limits I don't what makes up the two types.  As to the rest of your statement I will have to await a reply from my government before I can address the reason for the conference."

[Borys]

OOC Since NS doesn't particularly like the CSA... Oh and pay no attention to the man in black in the back of the room...

IC The Swiss Ambassador in the CSA thinks this idea is ridiculous and stupid and will not waste time attending, he has more important things to do like chasing southern belles...

OOC
LOL! I agree with D'Fox!

IC
The Habsburg Empire will follow the talks, although it does not see much sense in them. The Habsburg Empire firmly believes in the Free Will of Nations to massacre one another, following certain Honorary Rules for the Conduct of War, but by WHATEVER MEANS POSSIBLE.

[Logi]

The Reformist Republic of China will follow the talks, but refrains from offering an opinion on the treaty under the underlying terms have been cleared.

The Chinese Ambassodor, Fei Fung inquires;

"Sir, regarding Article V, what is the 'total tonnage allowance of aircraft carriers'? I also do not understand the difference between your definition of a capital ship and a vessel of war."

[Guinness]

FYI: I've cleaned out this thread and put all the OOC discussion in the discussion thread here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4704.0