Design Bureau Guangzhou

[Logi]

This thread shall be for BB + BC designs

I went and revisited the battlecruiser concept and it spawned this pocket BB.

Main Belt is, as always, inclined 20 degrees.

Huangshan, RRC Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   17,000 t light; 17,947 t standard; 18,990 t normal; 19,824 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.82 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
     6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,525.00lbs / 691.73kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
     on centreline amidships
   Weight of broadside 10,019 lbs / 4,545 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   14.90 ft / 4.54 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   190.00 ft / 57.91 m   14.90 ft / 4.54 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 81,833 shp / 61,047 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,877 tons

Complement:
   808 - 1,051

Cost:
   £4.612 million / $18.448 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,138 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 4,582 tons, 24.1 %
      - Belts: 2,312 tons, 12.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 985 tons, 5.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,225 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 61 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,861 tons, 15.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,088 tons, 42.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,990 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 331 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,632 lbs / 9,358 Kg = 15.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.528
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.77 ft / 0.23 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.94 ft / 6.38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,096 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 834 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.15
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[TexanCowboy]

I really don't want to drive you crazy or irritate you on this, but there was a reason that no nation ever put above-water torpedoes on a battleship. A potential shell hit on one could cause the warhead and the fuel to simultanously explode, which could easily penetrate the armoured deck, not to mention what it would do to crew of the 5'' guns. Without those, I like it. It's somewhat like the 17,000 ton 4x13.5'' 33 knot ships I'm playing with as I write this.

[Logi]

http://www.militaryfactory.com/ships/detail.asp?ship_id=KMS-Deutschland-Lutzow

8 x 533mm 21" torpedo tubes

[Tanthalas]

to big of main guns, not enough armor, not fast enough the 1.09 Stability isnt to bad, nor are the .69 recoil and 65% Steadiness, but the 1.01 Seakeaping is just flat scary.  One hit anywhere and she is in serisous danger of geting this message from SS "Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability" and that is a bad thing with battle damage.

I think you would be better off if you want to build somthing like the Whealers or my CCs to go with a max of 12" guns, put the diferance into making them faster (30 knots minimum so it can run from anything it cant smash up)

I played with a similar idea for the NS only I would have used quad 14" guns on an I class hull (yes it will work) but decided against it in the end.

[TexanCowboy]

He doesn't have 12'' guns. Closest he has is 11''L45-50's and 13''L35's.

[Tanthalas]

So develop one, or convince someone to lisence you one with its mount.  Not to Detract from the above posted ship but at one point the NS seriously considerd building this (under me obviously) I decided against it but I cant for the life of me remember why.

USNSS Inflexible (final), USNS Battlecruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   24,000 t light; 25,222 t standard; 28,293 t normal; 30,750 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   719.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   219.15 m / 213.36 m x 28.04 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (10 mounts), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 8 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (2x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns (3x2 guns), 4.00lbs / 1.81kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11,643 lbs / 5,281 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   448.00 ft / 136.55 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   448.00 ft / 136.55 m   26.50 ft / 8.08 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 79,849 shp / 59,567 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,527 tons

Complement:
   1,089 - 1,417

Cost:
   £3.648 million / $14.593 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,455 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 7,916 tons, 28.0 %
      - Belts: 3,378 tons, 11.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 659 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 1,270 tons, 4.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,409 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 200 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,184 tons, 11.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,066 tons, 39.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,293 tons, 15.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 379 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36,779 lbs / 16,682 Kg = 26.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.61 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.56 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (70 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.78 ft / 6.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 43,404 Square feet or 4,032 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 866 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.41
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc. Weight: 379 tons
250 tons FC
  25 tons Wireless
  25 tons Flag Facilities
  25 tons Crew Comfort
  25 tons Radar instalation
  25 tons Reserved
    2 tons Capitans Quarters
    2 Tons Flag Quarters

[Jefgte]

Not a bad 1915 BC...


;)

[Logi]

The armor, I believe, is enough for the opponents it'll face.

If I take the Wheeler guns as the unit of measure for the armor, the Wheeler needs to be within 12,000 yds to penetrate the main belt, the Huangshan will have been firing for quite sometime already. It wouldn't meet larger ships (scouting?) and have the speed to match or escape such ships.

28kts, IMO is already fast enough; its not a cruiser, its a practically a battlecruiser, abet a light one at that.

Besides, I only have a 12" L40 and would need a longer main belt to cover the citadel (4 turrets as opposed to 2) whereas I am using a 14" L45 here. Much more range.

Doubtless this ship could be much better armor if I bumped the weight up, but the point is to keep the ship at a low tonnage whilst allowing it to complete it's mission.

---------------------

Increased MB thickness by 1", reduced belt vertical height from 14' to 12'. Seakeeping bumped to 1.06.

Huangshan, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   17,000 t light; 17,947 t standard; 18,990 t normal; 19,824 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 167.64 m x 26.82 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
     6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,525.00lbs / 691.73kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
     on centreline amidships
   Weight of broadside 10,019 lbs / 4,545 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   12.80 ft / 3.90 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   12.80 ft / 3.90 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 81,833 shp / 61,047 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,877 tons

Complement:
   808 - 1,051

Cost:
   £4.612 million / $18.448 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,138 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 4,490 tons, 23.6 %
      - Belts: 2,220 tons, 11.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 969 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,225 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 77 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,861 tons, 15.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,195 tons, 43.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,990 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 316 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,165 lbs / 9,600 Kg = 15.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.528
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.05 ft / 0.32 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.94 ft / 6.69 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,096 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

------------------

As for your design Tan:
Its slower by 1 kts
Its larger by 7ktons larger
It has nearly the same total broadside (the main battery broadside on mine is larger however)
Your belt isn't inclined, difference there.
Your bow and stern sections aren't armored at all.

I could do better if I wanted to increase the tonnage that much, the point is to keep the tonnage down. Does it seem like I have BP to throw around?

[TexanCowboy]

STILL TORPEDOES!!! DIDN'T I JUST TELL YOU THEY'RE BAD ON CAPITAL SHIPS!?!? ;D ;D

[Logi]

I would thing the massive secondary on Tan's ship is more of a problem. But again, they've been done and its now a battleship.

I hardly call a 17kton ship a battleship with the massive beasts people are building now. It's a very light battlecruiser bordering on heavy cruiser.

[Tanthalas]

my point however remains salient, logi that one I posted was a 1915 BC with 1912 wngines, the belt was inclined I just didnt bother to post that it was (all the Is had a 10deg main belt incline) at 28 knots it will have to face ships like Asfaloth, and Montmedy (not to mention all the other 28 knot fast BBs people are playing with).  it either has to be faster (2 knots + faster) or biger

[Jefgte]

hmmm ...

NUS like the max 170m concept for that kind of ship.

Exellent, just minors modifs for NUS Armada


;)

[Logi]

Tan either of your options provokes a larger ship.

And I know its was a 1915 ship with 1912 engines. My point still stands. For an upgrade of 7ktons, I might as well scrap the design and build my Juren instead.

[Jefgte]

...STILL TORPEDOES!!! DIDN'T I JUST TELL YOU THEY'RE BAD ON CAPITAL SHIPS!?!? 

TT could be placed on cruisers... all cruisers

You could add reload system too


;)

[Tanthalas]

Tan either of your options provokes a larger ship.
And I know its was a 1915 ship with 1912 engines. My point still stands. For an upgrade of 7ktons, I might as well scrap the design and build my Juren instead.

not realy logi you can do 6X12" on 30 knots with similar armor (trust me im building it in 1917)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4205.msg48217#msg48217
thats the original it has grown a bit since that point however, its still 30 knots with 6X12" (it just weighs 500 tons more)