1/1918 Rules Updates

[Sachmle]

Stupid question of the day:

I have 4 Advanced level (5/9) forts and 1 basic level (4/6) fort. Under the prior rules each fort contained a CORPS of men. So, how do these convert to the new rules? Are they 18 citadel forts so the manpower matches, or are they 6 citadel forts so the levels match? If 6 citadel, which honestly makes more sense, where do the extra 33,500 men per fort (167,500 men total) go? *poof*? Are they now dated light infantry since they have no mobile artillery?

[Guinness]

The extra men, if you imagine they ever existed at all go *poof*, yeah.

I like to think of it this way: you bought and paid for a fortification with a certain fighting strength, not a unit of so many men. So for the same money, you still have a unit with the same fighting strength, just with what we imagine is a smaller garrison.

I suppose where this becomes an issue is if those men ever leave the 6 citadel fort. My expectation there is they turn into a division stripped of normal division level elements. Ie, they are then a 2.5/0 infantry division, more or less.

I hope this isn't too great an issue for anyone. My thinking here, and I believe the other Mods agree, is that 50,000 men for a fortification of that size and strength was just way too many.

It occurs to me that I need to flesh out the new rules to include what fighting strengths units who leave forts become. I'll work on that later.

[Sachmle]

Is OK with me, I just wondered. Also I think you dead on on the troops if they leave the forts and I think if you search you'll find a similar discussion earlier that came to the same conclusion.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The extra men, if you imagine they ever existed at all go *poof*, yeah.

I like to think of it this way: you bought and paid for a fortification with a certain fighting strength, not a unit of so many men. So for the same money, you still have a unit with the same fighting strength, just with what we imagine is a smaller garrison.

I'm just dandy with that for Fortifications. One goal of a fort is to hold an area more securely with less people. Plus you can have older reservists form part of the garrison.  With the manpower freed from Trente and Trieste, I can raise another Corps + Division and stay <5% of Pop....though I think I'll sprinkle Brigade/Division forts around instead....where'd that map go...

In the case of Fortified lines, they look to be essentially the same - 40km with 50,000 men.  Which means the Treviso line stays the same. 

[Guinness]

I've posted an updated table with stats for forces detached from fortresses similar to what we already had for fortified lines.

Also I updated the army unit cost table with the two new tech levels there.

[ctwaterman]

Extra Twinkies into Guinness pay Packet... ;D

[Borys]

Ahoj!
OK - so now I have a 6 Citadel Fortress at Malta, which uses 16,500 men from the 50,000. The Stellungsinfanterie Korps "Malta".

To account for the change in rules my idea is to build a 20km Fortified Line (which nicely recreates the historical Victoria Lines), thus drawing in 25,000 men. This leaves me a surplus of 10,000 - which I will designate as "rapid response", i.e. a brigade or two of light infantry.

I'll pay 1$ a year for the lot, at Active status.

0,8 - the fort
0,4 - the fortified line
0,2 - for the mobile infantry - to round it up.

Is this OK?

Borys

[Guinness]

Ignoring the manpower issue for a moment: The new 6 citadel fortress is identical in cost and fighting power to the old fortress. So, naturally, your fortress on Malta is a 6 citadel fortress. In fact, it always has been, you just didn't know it.  ;)

Please indulge me as I explain this at length, as I suspect other players may benefit.

The immediate effect on your budget is nil. It is true that now we assume that your Maltese fortress requires less men to man it, so for purposes of manpower limits, you have now a few more men available. If you want to organize them into a fighting unit some where though, you'll need to acquire that unit. This is because, while manpower is saved from before, you haven't actually paid $ or BP for more fighting strength.

So if you want to build the fortified line, you'll have to buy it first. It looks from your cost estimates that you infantry is 1895 baseline, so you'd be building a 2/2 fortified line, that will require $8 and 0.5BP, and maint. is $0.8/$0.4/$0.08 (depending on mobilization).

Also I'd say if you want to buy up a brigade worth of light infantry (here assuming a brigade is 1/4 of a corps), you'll have to buy that too. Assuming those too are 1895 baseline light infantry, that unit's fighting power would be 1/0.25, and it's cost would be $2 and 0.25BP, and maint. would be $0.2/$0.1/$0.02 (again depending on mobilization).

So the total costs of those changes should be: $10 and 0.75BP.

Maintenance (again assuming 1895 Baseline Infantry):
6 Citadel Fort: $1.6/$0.8/$0.16
20km Fortified Line: $0.8/$0.4/$0.08
1 Brigade Lt. Inf.: $0.2/$0.1/$0.02

Totals: $2.60/$1.3/$0.26

So your maintenance costs are about right, except you probably don't *have* to round up the Brigade of Light Infantry. You'll still need to pay to instantiate the fortified line and the light infantry brigade though.

So bottom line: don't think of it as if you've all of a sudden got extra troops lying around because the fort manning requirements have shrunk. You can think of it as if you all of a sudden have men eligible for military service available that you didn't before 1918 I guess.

I hope that makes sense.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
1 - makes sense;
2 - I did not mention the payment for the building of the 20km line and raising of the Light Brigade, as to me it "goes without saying". But maybe I should had brought it up, for clarity;
3 - for an unfanthomable reason, I was looking at the upkeep cost of a Citadel 3 Fortress, not a "6" type, hence the 0,4$ - now clear that it is actually 1,3$, no problem.

Borys

[Guinness]

Yeah, I wasn't sure, so I decided to cover the construction costs just so no one else would get confused. I'm happy it makes sense.

[Guinness]

FYI: In response to some questions, I've added construction times to fortresses, fortified lines, and coast defense guns.

For discussion's sake, these are:

Fortresses: 6 months per citadel, both for new construction and expansion of existing fortresses.
Fortified lines: 6 months per 10km of line
Coast Defense Guns:
   - Guns 8.01" and larger: 6 months to manufacture the gun, and 6 months to install it, for a total of 1 year.
   - Guns smaller than 8.01": 3 months to manufacture the gun, and 3 months to install it, for a total of 6 months.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I like the quoted times.
One query:

Fortresses: 6 months per citadel, both for new construction and expansion of existing fortresses.

Is this is per level - i.e. a "Type 1" citadel takes half a year, and upgrading it to a "Type 3" takes another 6 months, or is it per "step", for want of a better term, i.e.:
- Type 1 - takes six months -> upgrade to Type 3 takes 12 months (2x6) -> upgrade to Type 6 takes 18 months.

I prefer the later - fortresses are notoriously slow to construct.

Borys

[Guinness]

That's a good question.

In my mind, I don't think upgrading a fortress from one level to the next should take that long. It's mostly a matter of swapping out the equipment contained within, no? This seems consistent with army units in general, which can be constructed or upgraded in 6 months.

So my intention is for the upgrade time to only apply to expansion from one size to the next.

That said, I'm interested in the views of our knowledgeable army experts on this point.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
To me fortresses are about blasting rock, moving earth, welding reinforcement rods and pouring concrete over them (and waiting for it to set), making underground railroads, etc.

I see upgrading as both swapping equipment AND adding buildings, digging deeper, casting and installing larger guns and thicker armour plates/turets.

Thinking about it - if the cost of upgrading was ON TOP of what had been already paid, and not the difference, I'd support that.
Borys

[Guinness]

Thinking about it - if the cost of upgrading was ON TOP of what had been already paid, and not the difference, I'd support that.

Meaning that when you upgrade a 'baseline' to an 'advanced' fortress, you basically pay for the whole thing all over again as if it were a brand new fortress?