Alliance?

[Desertfox]

It looks like a 27kt Alliance is more than possible. Any rule related problems?


Constitution class, New Switzerland Battlecruiser laid down 1904 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   15,285 t light; 16,025 t standard; 18,183 t normal; 19,910 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 167.64 m x 21.34 m  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1904 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1904 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1904 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (2x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1904 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1904 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,280 lbs / 2,395 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 67,437 shp / 50,308 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,885 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   782 - 1,017

Cost:
   £1.561 million / $6.246 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 660 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 4,789 tons, 26.3 %
      - Belts: 2,161 tons, 11.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,049 tons, 5.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,519 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,372 tons, 18.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,344 tons, 34.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,898 tons, 15.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,521 lbs / 9,308 Kg = 23.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.29 ft / 6.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,378 Square feet or 2,543 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 687 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 2.17
      - Overall: 1.08
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Shaft power is a mere 40% larger than the allowed 12000SHP.

[Desertfox]

Easily solved by adding 2 more shafts. Nothing in the rules about shaft limits, and 6 shafts is possible, complicated but possible.

[P3D]

Do you really want to force me to add that rule just for your sake?

[maddox]

6 shafts?   Nutcase.  Even now that isn't used.

Imagine the  bumpersticker on that  stern "Wide load" or " Kiss my wide ass"

[Korpen]

6 shafts?   Nutcase.  Even now that isn't used.

Imagine the  bumpersticker on that  stern "Wide load" or " Kiss my wide ass"

Well there are precedent, i know of at least one class of ships with six shafts in this period, the russian battleships Nogorod and Popov.
And we have stranger ships then a six shaft AC here already... :)

[Earl822]

I think the HP/shaft may be a bit low for 1909 turbines, as even the Minotaurs, which were built with triple expansion engines had 23000hp over 2 shafts, and the Lion class, laid down in 1909, had around 70000Hp over 4 shafts

[Desertfox]

Vor der Tann (1908) was capable of 80,000 hp on 4 shafts, well above my own ship.

[P3D]

Von der Tann has nominal 44000SHP. Trial SHP does not count.
Consider the British IRL had the tech that gave them the 1912 engines. Similarly to some people here who could built 1909 engines in 1905.

[Desertfox]

A moot point anyway since Ill have the 24kt version with unreliable engines. I like her better and gives me good storyline material.

[maddox]

It's possible, with 6 shafts and reliable turbines.  I did a rough calculation on the warship projects forum.

http://www.phpbbplanet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1394&mforum=warshipprojects

And here I repost it.

Speedy Gonzales, New Swiss armed Speedboat laid down 1906

Displacement:
   10.706 t light; 11.101 t standard; 13.070 t normal; 14.646 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   775,29 ft / 771,00 ft x 94,49 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   236,31 m / 235,00 m x 28,80 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 10,00" / 254 mm guns (2x2 guns), 500,00lbs / 226,80kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 2.320 lbs / 1.052 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   393,70 ft / 120,00 m   11,68 ft / 3,56 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   501,15 ft / 152,75 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 79% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   0,39" / 10 mm      0,39" / 10 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 6 shafts, 30.075 shp / 22.436 Kw = 23,96 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.546 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   610 - 794

Cost:
   £0,919 million / $3,676 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 290 tons, 2,2%
   Armour: 1.208 tons, 9,2%
      - Belts: 1.121 tons, 8,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 87 tons, 0,7%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 2.148 tons, 16,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.010 tons, 53,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.365 tons, 18,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32.924 lbs / 14.934 Kg = 65,8 x 10,0 " / 254 mm shells or 3,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,51
   Metacentric height 9,3 ft / 2,8 m
   Roll period: 13,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,10
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,319
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27,77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,54 ft / 9,31 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,42 ft / 5,92 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,42 ft / 5,92 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   19,42 ft / 5,92 m
      - Stern:      19,42 ft / 5,92 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,31 ft / 6,19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 264,2%
   Waterplane Area: 45.102 Square feet or 4.190 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 166%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 611 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,00
      - Longitudinal: 1,19
      - Overall: 1,01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

I think she's a little bit larger than the Swiss docks and slips however.  This would require Type 4 at least.

[Korpen]

A block coefficient of 0,319?
That is less then springsharp functions with, below 3,8 strange things happens.

[Walter]

I agree with Korpen there. I once thought I found a possible sollution to sim those small PT boats because it acts strange with the low BC. I sent it to Ian but he told me that SS is really inaccurate with such low BCs and that the low BCs should be avioded (don't remember what number he gave me). I think that 0.38, like in the Wesworld, should be the lower limit of BC. Also
*Hooman mode on*
For a ship of that size, such a low BC is completely unrealistice. A BC of 0.5 or greater would be much more realistic for such a ship in this timeperiod.
*Hooman mode off*
:)

[maddox]

People, who wants to build a 11000 tons tin can? Even a GB with a 100 mm can punch holes in this, and the 5 100 mm guns on the side are not enough to deter any concentrated assault. The 2  twin turrets are to slow to take on TB's of GB's.

This thing can only race to the spot she'll sink.
In the Warship projects posting I explained how I came to the dimensions.

In effect the hull length is 1.5 times Dreadnaught, the width the minimum I could imagine to fit 6 5000 HP turbines, shafts and shaft races in a "military acceptable" way.

As technician with an inventive streak I could also propose pull/push popellers, with half of them on the bow. Or stacked shafts. Demanding more draft, but hey, 4 shafts, or 8 or even 14 (double stack 6 on the stern, and 2 extra on the bow).... For a draft of 11 meters .  Nice plans, but as useable as a dead snail in a greyhound race.

No Admiral wants such a load of strangeness. No politician wants to accept the blame if it goes wrong. (unless the kickbacks from the shaftmakers are big enough)