1/16: Bonuses, Rule Updates

[miketr]

Not exactly...   Iberia will be able to start work on in H2 1916... 1914 engines... which doesn't have another upgrade till 1920.  Iberia would have it by then.  Aircraft is more of a problem as there is a 1913 and 1915 upgrade. 

Also The staggering of the aircraft vs. engines is clunky...

Heavier-than-air crafts	Internal Combustion Engines (Land, submarines, and air)
Baseline: None	Dated (-1): none
NA ?	1895 Baseline (0): Gas, petrol(gasoline) and alcohol-fueled engines up to 20HP
1902 Advanced: Primitive flying machines:	1900 Advanced (+1): Land and airship engines up to 200HP, 50HP aeroplane engines
1906 Cutting Edge: Historical 1910 aircrafts	1905 Cutting Edge(+3):Diesel engines, Land, airship and naval engines up to 750HP, 75 HP aeroplane engines
1910: hostirical 1914 aircrafts	1910 Futuristic (+5): IC engines up to 2000HP, 120HP Aeroplane engines (1910)
1913: historical 1916 aircrafts	1914: Engines up to 3000HP, 200HP Aeroplane engines (1916)
1915: historical 1918 aircrafts	The 1914 engines might go here instead; wording is poor
1920: historical 1922 aircrafts	1920: Engines with no effective limit on max output (1920), Aeroplane engines 300HP
1928: historical 1930 aircrafts

At anyrate if we are going to keep the ICE tech tree it needs to be more lined up with the Submarine, Aicraft and Armor tree's...  As its not clear at each level what is needed.

[Carthaginian]

How is it not clear?

Engines up to 3000HP = you can build ICE engines with 3000HP max for ships
200HP Aeroplane engines = you can build ICE engines with 200HP max for aircraft.

We did need some vehicle engine HPs put in; I always assumed that the vehicles would be similar to the aircraft engine output, since a diesel in a ship is generally the size of a small auto.

The techs were not so broken as to need casting out- just clarifying.


Still in all, people are now looking at getting the benifits of a tech in half-time or less... not fair to those that put in the research for the old way. Some compensation should be made to those people.

[The Rock Doctor]

If the ICE tech is retained, we'll sub-divide each level of the submarine, aircraft, airship, motorization, light armor, and heavy armor charts/techs to account for the different engine tech levels influencing the cost and performance of these vehicles.

[Korpen]

How is it not clear?

Engines up to 3000HP = you can build ICE engines with 3000HP max for ships
200HP Aeroplane engines = you can build ICE engines with 200HP max for aircraft.

We did need some vehicle engine HPs put in; I always assumed that the vehicles would be similar to the aircraft engine output, since a diesel in a ship is generally the size of a small auto.

Really depend on the size of the ship...
But marine disels usally looks nothing like the kind of engines you put in a car.

But a problem is that the HPs are somewhat picked out of the thin air.

The techs were not so broken as to need casting out- just clarifying.

Think it is add complexity without adding real content.

Still in all, people are now looking at getting the benifits of a tech in half-time or less... not fair to those that put in the research for the old way. Some compensation should be made to those people.

Still disagree there; first of all they have so far gotten benefits from the techs were they are advanced in. The techs were people are ever more then one tech behind the leaders is not IC tech, but it the specific Submarine /Air or motorisation tech. And they do not become cheaper in any way due to a change of IC tech.

As for fair, some countries started the game in 1906 with more then twice as much advanced tech as some other countries of equaly size was that "fair"?

[Carthaginian]

But marine disels usally looks nothing like the kind of engines you put in a car.

Yes, they do. Made in exactly the same fashion... well, actually, they are more like those of a farm tractor, but no matter.
My line about them being THE SIZE OF AN AUTO covers the only fundamental difference between a shipboard diesel and a vehicle diesel.

But a problem is that the HPs are somewhat picked out of the thin air.

Then adjust them; do not throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater; especially do not when there are too many other people that have been taking care of the baby properly.

As for your other point- you are stripping out a major portion of a tech tree that many have prepared for the age of aircraft with, and others- largely an allied block and nations friendly to them- have not. Without proper compensation for the effort, you are saying 'Don't bother researching- the tech you pay for today may go away tomorrow.' I imagine you would be quite angry if techs changed to negate your battlecruiser advantage- put yourself in the other guy's shoes for a minute.


We all agreed that the techs at startup would be accepted. Whatever your problems this that arrangement were, they should have been voiced then.

[Korpen]

Yes, they do. Made in exactly the same fashion... well, actually, they are more like those of a farm tractor, but no matter.
My line about them being THE SIZE OF AN AUTO covers the only fundamental difference between a shipboard diesel and a vehicle diesel.

Well they do not look like any old tractor engine i ever seen. But no matter, sorry I did misread you thing about being as big as an auto. mentaly added  a "put in". :)

As for your other point- you are stripping out a major portion of a tech tree that many have prepared for the age of aircraft with, and others- largely an allied block and nations friendly to them- have not.

Still do not see anyone loosing any real edge. Yes, it might be marginally easier for someone to catch up if behind in all tech, but almost without exception the area were people are behind in not IC engine tech, but the Submarine or aircraft techs themself. So I do not see anyone losing their edge due to a removal in IC engine tech.

Without proper compensation for the effort, you are saying 'Don't bother researching- the tech you pay for today may go away tomorrow.'

Alredy happend to me, and back then I did not even mention it.

[The Rock Doctor]

Nothing is happening to eliminate anybody's lead with respect to submarine, aircraft, airship, or vehicle technology.  If somebody has 1916-era aircraft, they are still better than 1914-era aircraft.

I imagine you would be quite angry if techs changed to negate your battlecruiser advantage

I have done exactly that by eliminating all but one future naval engine tech level.   Those on the leading edge, such as Gran Colombia and Orange, will have to research that tech; the others will have the option of digesting it if they can arrange a deal. 

Without proper compensation for the effort

I have said upfront that those folks actively researching ICE may change their research to something else.  Bavaria is the lone example I know of which has completed 1914 ICE, and I would be open to negotiating something with Kirk.

I'm also open to considering a middle-ground option which will require attainment of the existing 1910 ICE as a sort of, "Now they're reliable and everything after this is just incremental improvements".