Baltic League position on Neutrality - No international law as we know it

[Korpen]

If we are formal, you cannot be neutral  in general terms,  neutrality is something that is stated for a specific conflict.
However what you can do, and several countries IRL (Sweden and Switzerland as the most clear examples) is to use a farce like "Non-aligned in peace aiming for neutrality in war".
The reason neutrality has to be stated for each and every conflict is that much of what a neutral party can and cannot do makes no sense, such as allowing merchant ships with munitions harbour to coal in port and the rules for Interning people belonging to the armed forces of an other county.

[khymerion]

Joy.  Looks like I have my hands full in sorting out the quagmire around me...  since I can't address the past, its already past... I'll have to get each new problem as it comes up.  *sigh*  Hard times ahead indeed.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Forget nice XXth Earth. With the Red Cross, Hague or Geneva Conventions, etc.
NONE OF THAT EXISTS HERE!
The only thing which exists is the Vienna Convention.

Further such conventions can be played out, of course.

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Forget nice XXth Earth. With the Red Cross, Hague or Geneva Conventions, etc.
NONE OF THAT EXISTS HERE!
The only thing which exists is the Vienna Convention.

Further such conventions can be played out, of course.

Borys

While the formalized convention does not exist, the conventions did not create most of the concepts they formalized. The general concept, privileges and duties of a neutral country had existed since before the peace of Westphalia (and if we throw that one out, we are throwing away all the basic concepts of inter-state relationships). So i really think we should keep to the historic meanings of terms, even if details are changed (but then it should be noted) to avoid unintentional misunderstandings,  and to make it easier to write things. If we remove or change the meaning of historic terms (like calling HE shells with windshield for "capped"),  will be necessary to define everything, every time especially in contact with rules moderator as it is quite needful for the information to get trough.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The concepts are indeed around, but are custums. They have not been put into writing and signed by Govt's.
I will post the thread about the convulted process to agree on Viennese Convention, a very light version of Hague 1907.
Borys

[Borys]

ienna, 15th of May 1903

Dear Delegates and Observers, enlightned by the God Allmighty, let us try to codify the customs of war. War is is unevitable, but is not necessarily barbaric when waged by Civilized Nations. Let us focus on what we agree about, leaving protocols of disagreement for later. So help us God.

Special opening address by Kaiser Stefan


Meeting taken over by Foreign Ministry Secretary, Imre Lengyel.


Austria proposes to first define basic some basic issues:

1 - Combatants fight, Civilians do not. Civilians are not targets for the Combatants.

A Combatant carries weapons openly, and is CLEARLY marked in some manner - uniform is best, can be headdress, armband, whatever.

2 - POWs are to be treaty humanely, not tortured nor maimed. Other ranks can be made to work, but not on works directly affecting the course of War (forced to fight, used to build foritfactions against own country, etc.). Officers cannot be forced to work.

3 - the use of weapons designed to maim, such as explosive bullters under 1,5 inch calibre, expanding bullets, or Toxic Gas is banned.

Let us leave Issues of Compliance and Enforcment for later.
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Oct 13 2006, 07:34 AM


Hegemon
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Monsieur Imre Lengyel, Can I have the word?


Yes Herr Geoffray,

France would like to comment on the poison gas proposal.

With the experience France gained recently, we totaly support this proposal.
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 13 2006, 08:32 AM


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Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg, representing the Deutsches Kaiserreich Brandenburg, requests recognition to speak:

"My nation can agree with points One and Two in full. However we have some minor reservations regarding Part Three.

"We fully agree that the use of small-calibre explosive bullets, when used against troops, are barbaric. However we respectfully disagree with regard to the useage of expanding bullets. Indeed it is our believe that the solid bullet is, perhaps, more likely to 'just wound' than the expanding one.

"With regard to the useage of poison gas," here he directs a sideways glance at the French, "we fully agree that its usage is horrific. However is not the purpose of war to kill the enemy? It is a difficult moral quandry. Despite these reservations, however, the DKB will not oppose restrictions on chemical warfare."
   
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Phoenix    
Posted: Oct 13 2006, 02:39 PM


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Prince Pu-Lun raised his hand and smiled politely: "Can I express some of my people's wisdom that has been acquired by bitter experience ?"

1 - Combatants fight, Civilians do not. Civilians are not targets for the Combatants.
A Combatant carries weapons openly, and is CLEARLY marked in some manner - uniform is best, can be headdress, armband, whatever.

It is agreed that there is a clear distinction between civilians and soldiers, that there must be a clear marker to set them apart. But what does one do with those civilians, able of body and filled with righteous zeal to protect their own, who join the armed ranks in order to fight and have not yet found a uniform to wear ? When there is a crisis one rushes to the battlefield, not taking time to dress up appropiately for the occasion. If you say a clear marker is enough, well, the New Swiss learned to their chagrin that any man wearing peasants' clothes in the Middle Kingdom may be a warrior. All who did not want to fight left the scene as soon as they could, there was no mistaking.
Then the problem with combatants targeting civilians... I'm sure someone will bring the Bombardment of Shanghai to this assembly, sooner or later, trying to use it as a club for hitting the Middle Kingdom with. What I want to make clear is that we warned the civilians and their masters to evacuate the civilians, and gave them ample time to do so, before the bombarding would start. The stubborn idiocy of the New Swiss rulers who forbade - forbade I say ! - the civilians to evacuate caused thousands of dead men, women and children. Whose is the culpability in this ? Those who warned a battle was about to begin, or those who actually stopped civilians from getting away ?

2 - POWs are to be treaty humanely, not tortured nor maimed. Other ranks can be made to work, but not on works directly affecting the course of War (forced to fight, used to build foritfactions against own country, etc.). Officers cannot be forced to work.
Again, some people would look accusatively at the envoys of the Middle Kingdom. And again I must speak before that happens. We have tried to develop a humane way of warfare. During the war with New Switzerland the Middle Kingdom armies did not take prisoners of war. Rather than causing good men to lie fallow in rotting barracks, prone to disease and worrying about their loved ones and families, we chose to let them return to their homeland. But ensured that they would never no more be used for warfare by the simple act of maiming them. What price is the loss of one thumb compared to one's life ? And yes, we did send the last New Swiss soldiers we found in the Middle Kingdom overseas to work for a certain time period there earning their freedom, and you know why ? Because there was no help at all from their rulers to bring them back home. No ships, no messages... just 12.000 men who were left to die I suppose, because not a single effort was made by the New Swiss army or government to get them back home ! And again we sought to discourage future soldiers from attacking the Middle Kingdom. We say; "Look: your fate is thus if you attack us - you lose a thumb, you may have to work for several years, and then you can go home." I think that is preferable to "Look: you die, and your corpse will rot in strange soil for eternity with your relatives wondering forever what happened to you." Hm ?

3 - the use of weapons designed to maim, such as explosive bullters under 1,5 inch calibre, expanding bullets, or Toxic Gas is banned.
To the experience of the Middle Kingdom army weapons are especially designed to kill. And if the weapons don't kill, they certainly may put soldiers out of the battles by wounding them. If you claim weapons should not maim you should forbid all weapons that exist, because each and every weapon I've ever seen does just that: maim if not kill !!
It is foolish to think that, when you forbid the hoe, the stick won't cripple a man.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 16 2006, 07:13 PM


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Imre Lengyel:
Honored Delegates and Observers.
I am pleased to see such general agreement abnd support for the presetned notions. (nods at M'siue Geofrey).
Enpowered by my Monatch, I would wish to address specific issues raised.
(Looks at DKB Delegate)
Expanding versus explosive small-arms ammunition - it is an issue of "wound" and "maim" - a solid core bullet making a hole through a man's arm, and an expanding bullet tearing the tissue to point of making the arm useless.

Your Serenity, as to your Naton's Wisdom on point one - we are debating on general principles to be used with Good Will of Contractuaries to an eventual Convention. And let past events be examples of what we should drive at or what to avoid in future, not source for recriminations or bickering. In your first example, if such a matter was to happen again, it would be nice if the Manchu military DID provide the patriotic peasantry with ANY sort of visible identification. Are armbands of distinct color too much to ask for? Or maybe inform the adversary that ANY and all Manchu subjects in certain area are beligerents. As to the second example, maybe the issue of bombardment of cities and fortresses be covered in a separate article.
On the second point, Your Serenity, the idea is reciprocation between the Contractuarities. "You kill or chop bits off from our guys, we do same to yours" - to use the straightforward style so favored by Manchu diplomats. Hopefully the age of Basil Bulgaroktonos has passed. I do not, however, consider the unusual disregard of the New Swiss Gov't shown towards its soldiers in Manchu hands to be really pertinent to the issue of humane treatment of POWs.
On the third, Your Serenity, I bow before the Wisdom of Your People. Yes, weapons are desgned to kill or - failing that - to wound. However, just like stated to the DKB representative to this Meeting, there is a difference between "wounding" on one hand, and "maiming" or "crippling". The idea behind this article is to improve the chances of a wounded man to come back from war and - the Higher Power allows - resume his productive role in society, and not be brought to the level of a crippled beggar.



   
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Desertfox II    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 09:19 AM


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New Switzerland is not attending having been fed up with Treaties and such plus they have more important things to attend to. But that doesnt prevent neutral observers from attending...

"Fellow delegates and observers, I have a question. How would these Protocols be enforced? And what about the unrestricted bombardment of cities by Armed Fleets?"
   
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Ithekro    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 12:15 PM


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1 - Combatants fight, Civilians do not. Civilians are not targets for the Combatants.

The Kingdom of Rohan, after many generations of wars and peace know the fact that warriors come from civilians. A woman or child can kill a warrior just as quickly as a man. They just won't be as deliberate as a warrior.

A Combatant carries weapons openly, and is CLEARLY marked in some manner - uniform is best, can be headdress, armband, whatever.

Warpaint might be clear enough for a warband or the green uniforms of the Mark on the battlefield, but not all applications of combatants and warriors is meant to be in the open and clearly marked. Secret or covert is a known factor for some of our peoples. Those that fled West ahead of the Normans and French fought from behind bushes and trees to great effect against the brightly colored uniforms of old. And operations such as the capture of the revered grace that is the Emporer of the Dragon Throne should not happen if combatants must always be clearly marked. Such advantages are not thrown away lightly. A combatant is any who is inducted, indoctrinated, trained, and given an assignment to a unit, a division, or an operation.

2 - POWs are to be treaty humanely, not tortured nor maimed. Other ranks can be made to work, but not on works directly affecting the course of War (forced to fight, used to build foritfactions against own country, etc.). Officers cannot be forced to work.

A warrior captured in war belongs to those that have captured him. The same for this civilians that are taken rather than killed to remove their seed from the world. While this is not done much in the modern world, the right to do so remains. Those that are taken are to be integrated into their new community. The whole becomes greater as those that would fight the Riders of Rohan see the error of their ways and become part of our united nations. Many have come to us, some as friend and some as foe. They are now either a part of us, and friend, or dead. The Followers of the Eye have become the exception. They have become a mortal enemy of the Free People of the Earth as they attempt to destroy Man through corruption and sacrifice of lives to their dark god. The Anahuac government was this way. Fortunately their people were not all this way, and the Mesoamerican Republic stands now in place of the evil that was once their.

3 - the use of weapons designed to maim, such as explosive bullters under 1,5 inch calibre, expanding bullets, or Toxic Gas is banned.

War is war. If you use a weapon on me, I will use it back on you. A level playing field as best that can be arranged. If none use Toxic Gas on Rohan or her allies, then Rohan will not use Toxic gas on those that would have used it on Rohan. It is very simple. Go the extra step against another power, and that power has the right to use that extra step back at you. Weapons are designed to kill people. If he is maimed, then the weapon or user of the weapon probably didn't do its job. However if he is maimed and returns home, at least he is alive, and might not be able to make war again against his enemies. Thus is the price of war. The worse it is made the less it might be used for those that wish to use war will find they have no men left to fight in it.
   

[Borys]

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Borys    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 12:17 PM


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Imre Lengyel:
The Honorable Observer from the New Swiss (note to self - check WHICH New Swiss) raised two issues. As to enforcement - the Contractuaries of the Convention will oblige themslves to follow the agreed rules in conflicts with other Contractuaries. The only gain or loss from compliance or non compliance is reciprocation, and condemnation by Contractuary Neutrals.

As to bombardment of cities by armed fleets - I would suggest to discuss this matter as a separate point, combined with that of bombardment of cities and fortresses in general. Any useful suggestions?



   
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Earl822    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 01:46 PM


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Vice Admiral Greenwich stood up, looking first to his left, then to his right and finally straight ahead he spoke:

QUOTE
Ladies and Gentlemen, we must I am afraid realise that we are none of us going to be able to exract from this conference everything that we are after, and comprimises will have to be made.


Taking a quick sip of water he turned the page in his notebook and began once more.

QUOTE
1)We agree that all combatants in open fields of warfare must be distinguishable from civilians by the wearing of either a uniform, an armband or some other form of marking, i.e. war-paint as mentioned by Rohan. Despite this fact, we too state that there are some situations where covert operations are required and in these cases, uniform may not be worn.
2)Prisoners of war should either be invited to become loyal citizens of the nation  whose armed forces have captured them or, be held humanely until the end of hostilities and then returned to their country of origin. During there imprisonment they must be kept exercised, and well nourished, as well as not being further maimed in any way. It is to be noted that we should agree that anyone who surrenders openly should not be shot, but taken prisoner.
3)Weapons which Injur to the point of ruling a serviceman out of future service are in the eyes of the UKA acceptable, Weapons which, without distinction kill instantly such as poison gas are unacceptable. Also In this section the UKA would like to propose the banning of the use of stationary sea mines.
4)Bombardment of Coastal fortications or military positions is acceptable as long as the civillian population is not harmed.


His notes exhausted he returned to his seat
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 02:57 PM


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Herr von Bethmann-Hollweg responds to UKA points:

"Brandenburg can see both sides of the identification debate, and will refrain from further comment on this or on Point Two at the moment.

"The third point raised by the Admiral, however, we can not agree. Indeed some might argue that our American friends have the situation backwards. Nevertheless the DKB contends that the purpose of war is to kill the enemy; efforts that refuse to acknowledge this fact, I am afraid, must be questioned as to their grounding in reality. If it is kill or be killed, I am sure every soldier is going to choose the other man to die. And what of nations that refuse to agree to these terms? Do we forfeit the right of retaliation over the dubious moral high ground?

"In addition, Brandenburg will not agree to restrictions on the use of sea mines - especially 'stationary sea mines' which are, by nature, the preferred type for defensive work, as opposed to non- stationary sea mines which are, quite obviously, indiscriminate!

"Finally, we ask how, exactly, one is expected to bombard a coastal fort without harming civilians when the fort is, indeed, located within the boundaries of a port city?"
   
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Ithekro    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 04:03 PM


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Rohan, while not looking at restrictions for weapons, would state that the use of a weapon that kills indiscriminately on either side of a war, should not be used in combat. Not as a restriction, but as common sense. If a weapon can kill both you and your enemy at the same time seemingly at random, it would not be wise to use it in open field situations. Weapons tactics like stampeding buffalo through the front lines of battle. You can't control the path of the buffalo. They might trample both you and your enemies, or just your enemies, or just your peoples. Such weapons should be unacceptable for a wise general or admiral.

However as stated, if a weapon is used against Rohan, one can expect such a weapon to be returned in kind to the user of said weapon.
   
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Desertfox II    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 04:33 PM


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Note: My observer is not affiliated with any goverment.

"After searching through my notes I have found two different cases in which a fleet indiscriminately bombarded a civilian port without regard for causualties. In both cases there was not a state of war. What should be done about this? I'm refering to the bombardements of Taipei and Aden.

This brings up another topic. Shouldnt nations be required to state a formal decleration of war?

I think the germans have apoint regarding Sea Mines. By their nature these are purely defensivve weapons. So I dont see the point in banning them. However a case could be made against weapons of an offensive nature. Perhaps a Treaty limiting them?"
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Oct 17 2006, 11:56 PM


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QUOTE
1 - Combatants fight, Civilians do not. Civilians are not targets for the Combatants.
A Combatant carries weapons openly, and is CLEARLY marked in some manner - uniform is best, can be headdress, armband, whatever.


As France recognises the use of this rule, we would support this fully. But we also see the reasoning of the Rohirrim.

We suggest that soldiers wear a token identifying them as part of a military organisation.
This token would give the wearer the " benefit" of being interned, after capture and kept safe as long the war he's involved in, continious. Or unless the waring parties agree on an prisoner exchange.
We suggest to uniformize this token for all the countries that are participating in this conference.

This token doesn't have to be worn visible. But that means when wounded or killed in action , it's not helping the wearer to stay alive and hale.
   
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olekit    
Posted: Oct 18 2006, 02:55 AM


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Russia fully support the rule #1. But we think it is inpossible to prevent civilians from dead, if the battle takes place at the city, town or village. It will be wery hard to avoid hurting the civilians. To the other hand, it is inpossible to take the battle at the open fields, because of the battle tactics: when the armies has guns and rifles, they won't plan their meeting at the field far from civilians, they will make sudden strikes to that places, where enemies has their bases. And this is as usual fortresses, towns, villages and cities, where lot of civilians.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 12:49 AM


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Imre Lengyel:
"As we seem to be of like mind as concerns the first three points, and hopefully a final version may be agreed upon soon, I will venture to add two more points:

4 - In wartime mines may be laid in territorial waters of the belligerents without disclosure. In wartime mines may be laid in contested waters, with the provision of disclosing of minfield locations and limits to neutrals

5 - Cities without troops nor defended military instalations shall not be subject to bombadment. Defended cities shall be gven reasonable notice, as to allow civilians to leave, if these had no already left. Fortrsesses and other purely or mostly military instalations may be bombarded without notice. Military insltations inside cities may also be be bombarded without notice, with reasonable care taken to minimize civilian losses"

[Borys]

Prince Pu Lun was very amused by the remarks of Vice Admiral Greenwich. He thought about the second remark: <<Prisoners of war should either be invited to become loyal citizens of the nation whose armed forces have captured them or, be held humanely until the end of hostilities and then returned to their country of origin. During there imprisonment they must be kept exercised, and well nourished, as well as not being further maimed in any way. It is to be noted that we should agree that anyone who surrenders openly should not be shot, but taken prisoner.>> "Hmmm... so War would become a Sport... give the prey an honourable chance. Sun Tzu didn't elaborate on that. Should write a paper about the subject..."

When it was his turn to speak again Prince Pu Lun said:
"The Emperors of the Middle Kingdom have always valued peace and rarely our armies venture beyond what is already considered our Empire in order to conquer. I know that many of your scholars find the Chinese notion -that the entire world is subject to the Middle Kingdom- cause for mirth and much head-shaking while muttering "those crazy Chinese..." yet you should pause and consider the advantage: we do not need to wage war for expansion since all nations are already ours. But...
When another country attacks us they are like rebels attacking their souvereign. We do strike back, we do punish.
The Wise Master of old, Sun Tzu, has written in The Art Of War that it is wise to use a distinctive marking on your own troops so your soldiers can recognize the foe. When you take the war with New Switzerland as a recent example you do know that the most distinctive mark, of which we could never be mistaken, was the difference in race. Thus we saw no need for uniforms at short order. We do understand that in the future it is better to use distinctive clothing and badges or tokens. We will do so, if only to show how many of our people are peaceful citizens and how few are trained in -and ready for- the art of war.

War is a chaotic situation that upsets the normal order of society. What to do with captured soldiers ? The best enemy is a dead enemy, that has been a wisdom ever since the origin of man. As we become more and more civilized we develop new ways to treat man. Thus the times have changed and we must consider taking prisoners-of-war and keeping them alive and well in captivity until the end of hostilities as a new responsability of our Rulers. It is wise to respect life. It is wise to treat your prisoners honourably. It is even more wise to recognize that one has been wrong, and to learn, and to accept that one must change one's way for the better.

I have already remarked that it is useless to forbid weapons just because they maim. But the observation of the Esteemed Vice Admiral Greenwich that poison gas should be forbidden has no foundation in reality. A weapon that has been invented cannot be un-invented, and once known how to be used it will be used. I agree that poison gas is horrible. It is an uncontrollable weapon. But it exists. Armies in the Middle Kingdom have been experimenting with such gasses for many hundreds of years, you could say we are experts on this field. I can assure you that, although the results may seem interestingly spectacular, it is too erratic and dependent on the weather that it is simply not efficient and can even be dangerous for your own troops. As you all seem to agree that war should be restricted to a battlefield, and I wholeheartedly concur, so the use of such gasses should be restricted to a battlefield. But as you all know, the wind obeys no-one, and deadly gas meant to destroy an army might be blown towards a city without anyone able to stop it. Hence it is a horror.

Destroying cities in times of war is -again- as old as mankind itself. Our army has sought to take the honourable way and warned the citizens of cities we were about to bomb that they should leave. We even gave them ample time, time the enemy could have (and has) used to bring in extra reinforcements. Yet we chose to be honourable.

Laying sea-mines is a defensive practice. Warning other nations that there are minefields protecting your waters is the honourable thing to do. But laying sea-mines which wander about is dangerous even to your own fleet. What sensible admiral would do such ?

Oh well... next I suppose somebody is going to forbid torpedoes ?"
Smiling, he sat down.
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 09:42 AM


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von Bethmann-Hollweg nods. "The honourable one is most correct in his observations. New and terrible weapons can be compared to the old Arabic legends of the djinn; once you have uncorked their bottle, you cannot ever place them back within it.

"On the subject of mines, my government would be willing to agree to a protocol requiring the Civilised Nations of the world to abstain from the usage of unsecured sea-mines, and forbidding the placing of secured sea-mines outside of one's own terriorial waters outside time of war."
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 01:45 PM


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Imre Lengyel rose and waited for attention.
- "I propose the following wording of the five points we have discussed."

The Signatories of these Points oblige themselves to follow them in war against other Signatories.

1 - Combatants, defined as carrying weapons openly, and being marked with unfirm, distinct element of clothing, warpaint, etc. fight other Combatants. Whenever possible Civilians should not be affected;

2 - POWs are to be treaty humanely, not tortured nor maimed. POW should be treated in comparable manner to own troops. Other Ranks can be made to work, but not on works directly affecting the course of War (used to build fortifactions against own country and its allies, etc.). Officers cannot be forced to work. POWs cannot be forced to fight. Other Ranks and Officers should be kept in separate facilities;

3 - The use of Weapons designed to Maim, such as explosive bullets under 1,5 inch calibre, expanding bullets, or Indiscriminate Weapons, such as Toxic Gas is banned;

4 - The use of Non-Sedentary mines is forbidden. In Wartime Fixed Mines may be laid in Territorial Waters of the Belligerents without disclosure. In Wartime Fixed Mines may be laid in contested International Waters, with the provision of disclosing of Minfield Locations and their Limits to Neutrals;

5 - Cities not containing Troops nor Defended Military Instalations shall not be subject to bombardment. Defended Cities shall be given reasonable notice, as to allow civilians to leave, if these had no already left. Fortresses and other purely or mostly military instalations may be bombarded without notice. Military Instalations inside Cities may also be be bombarded without notice, with reasonable care taken to minimize civilian losses;


- "The Austrian delegation is ready to sign these points, but is open to suggestions on the editing and finer points of language."
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 02:11 PM


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Herr von Bethmann-Hollweg studies the propsal. "Most of these points my government has no issue with. However we cannot accept Point Three as I have previously mentioned."
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 02:52 PM


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Imre Lengyel, looking at DKB representative.

A pity. I had hoped that I got across to his excellency the idea behind that part of Point Three, and had hoped to dispell Brandenburger doubts as expressed by
QUOTE
Indeed it is our believe that the solid bullet is, perhaps, more likely to 'just wound' than the expanding one.


I repeat - the idea is for the solid bullet - failing to KILL - to "just WOUND", not MAIM or CRIPPLE. In other words - to put a man out of action, but with more chances for return to a normal life after the war is over.
But if I misunderstood my honorable counterpart, and the DKB objects to the idea of banning expanding amunition on other grounds than I had addressed, then I ask for clarification of the Brandenburger position .

Other opinions, Gentlemen?

[Borys]

 "We are not necessarily opposed to the expanding-bullet theory (ooc: smile.gif ), it is the precedent set by the outlawing of gas that we are opposed to. Yes it is horiffic, however when used properly it can be safely, and perhaps even a semblence of humanely, used and can save many "friendly" casualties that would be lost if it were not used."
   
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Ithekro    
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 10:05 PM


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Notification: The Officers should be responsible for their men if prisoners of war.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 02:19 AM


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Question: How can Officers be responsible for their men if they are in the power of the force that captured them?
   
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Earl822    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 03:14 AM


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the answer to that is that the officers pass on the orders of their capteurs, and act as mediators to ensure good welfare etc
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 04:39 AM


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Imre Lengyel:

I sugest a revised version, including the suggestion from the Rohanian* delegate, and where the signing of the Convention is not liked with the signing of the Appendix. Austria will sign the Appendix.


The Signatories of these Points oblige themselves to follow them in war against other Signatories.

The Vienna Convention

1 - Combatants, defined as carrying weapons openly, and being marked with uniform, or some distinct element of clothing, warpaint, etc. fight other Combatants. Whenever possible Civilians should not be affected; The idea of issuing identification tokens is encouraged;

2 - POWs are to be treaty humanely, not tortured nor maimed. POW should be treated in comparable manner to own troops. Other Ranks can be made to work, but not on works directly affecting the course of War (used to build fortifactions against own country and its allies, etc.). Officers cannot be forced to work. POWs cannot be forced to fight.

3 - Other Ranks and Officers should be kept in separate facilities; Officers may volunteer to remain with their men, without losing Officer status, discounting quality of accomodation. Such Officers represent the Other Ranks versus the captors;

4 - The use of Weapons designed to Maim, such as explosive bullets under 1,5 inch calibre, expanding bullets, etc. is banned;

5 - The use of Non-Sedentary mines is forbidden. In Wartime Fixed Mines may be laid in Territorial Waters of the Belligerents without disclosure. In Wartime Fixed Mines may be laid in contested International Waters, with the provision of disclosing of Minfield Locations and their Limits to Neutrals;

6 - Cities not containing Troops nor Defended Military Instalations shall not be subject to bombardment. Defended Cities shall be given reasonable notice, as to allow civilians to leave, if these had no already left. Fortresses and other purely or mostly military instalations may be bombarded without notice. Military Instalations inside Cities may also be be bombarded without notice, with reasonable care taken to minimize civilian losses;


Appendix to the Convention.
The Signatories of the Appendix undertake not to use Indiscriminate Weapons, such as Toxic Gas.



* nobody's perfect smile.gif
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 07:18 AM


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Monsieur Imre Lengyel, Can I have the word?



QUOTE
France just has questions.

What about fighting countries who are not signatories? Or upholding these strictures?
How about undercover warfare?
Or assassination or abduction of important governemental ,military or public people?

No, as far we have seen, War is an ugly beast, that isn't put into the rules of a duel.
It's all nice and well wanting to make war Humane, but the winner writes the rules.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 09:47 AM


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Imre Lengyel - I must confess I have overlooked a certain issue, the lack of which would gnaw at the very foundations of all which our civiliation stands for. Point 3 is amended to read:


3 - Other Ranks and Officers should be kept in separate facilities; Officers may volunteer to remain with their men, without losing Officer status, discounting quality of accomodation. Such Officers represent the Other Ranks versus the captors; Officers will be provided with batmen drawn from OR from their own army.

As to the point raised by the Honorable French represenatative - we hope that the signatory countries will set the example for lesser nations to follow, which would also sign this Convention. When a Signatory Country fights a non-Signatory country, its actions may be constrained solely by its customs and tradition of conduct. The only powers of enforcement are the opinion of one's peers and reciprocation by the opponent.
Spies, assassination, sabotage, abduction - could we leave that for another conference? Let us try to agree on the simplest things first.
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 12:28 PM


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Herr von Bethmann-Hollweg nods. "This is wholly acceptable to my government, and we would be happy to sign the main agreement." He prepares his quill pen...
   
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Desertfox II    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 12:56 PM


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"Ironic isn't it? The Nation responsible for indiscrimitely bombarding two defenseless cities is the one to host the conference to outlaw such practices..."
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 01:06 PM


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Imre Lengyel, shrugging just enough for it to be visible, yet not insultingly - "The officer who ordered the bombardment of Taipei did so on his own initiative, not on orders. After this act he deserted from Imperial service, and is a fugitive in location unknown. His fate at the hands of an Austrian Military Court is a foregone conclusion. As to the other example - Aden, I presume - the town was destroyed during house to house fighting, at heavy losses to Austrian infantry. Not to bombardment. As to irony - maybe we indeed are trying to redeem ourselfs, to help us avoid mistakes of the past. And maybe the Honorable New Swiss Observer will finally make some helpful contribution to this conference ...

[Borys]

"Sounds like an easy way to get away with murder, just blame it on someone else. Makes me wonder how icompetent the Austrain staff is to place a madman in command of their largest Naval task force. As to reedeming yourselves...all I have read on the papers point to the Austrians being involved in another nations internal problems and starting a colonisation campaing in the Pacific, I wonder how your Chinese allies will like that. And I do not see any pint in this Treaty it is worthless when just about all those present who might sign it are allies. BTW I am not Swiss..."
   
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Ithekro    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 02:05 PM


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(He is Saimese if you please.)
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 02:20 PM


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Imre Lengyel roars with laughter. Wiping tears from eyes - "one shouldn't believe everything they write in the papers, you know ... "
Tries to regain composure.
   
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Agrival Mars    
Posted: Oct 22 2006, 08:32 PM


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Just before the end of a days meeting a non-descript well-dressed elderly gentlemen carrying a briefcase, appears in front of the speaker chair.

Members of the commitee, can I have your undisturbed attention please, for I have a matter of great concern to disclose to you. I have a message of the upmost importance for this conference. My contractor hereby wants you to know, that certain countries are about to recieve the technology to mass-produce poisonous gasses for which they gladly payed. For the information concerning the relevant AND interrested countries, my contractor will keep an auction for this, between now and the end of the conference.
Further information will be distributed as seen fit.
As a token of my contracters goodwill, the containments of this briefcase is at your disposal.
Thank you all for your undiveded and complete attention.

After finishing his message, the gentlemen sets down his briefcase on a nearby table an leaves the meetingroom.

   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 01:43 AM


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OOC
It is true that in 1903 security wasn't what it is today ...
But let us imagine that this gentelman, due to high Charisma and Bluff and Diplomacy, DID manage to reach this room in a Gov't building.
And isn't he in Rohan just now?

Back to PC
Imre Lengyel, when the older man is putting the briefcase on the table, draws his revolver and shoots him in the thigh
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 05:34 AM


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The French delegate flees in terror.... screaming....
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 05:34 AM


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In the ensuing comotion the Foreign Affairs Secretary yells DON'T ANYBODY TOUCH THAT BRIEFCASE. In his excitement he first did that in Hugarian, so he repeated the message in German and French.

Lengyel rushes towards the old man wirthing on the floor, and who is spewing blood and calling for the Virgin Mary ...
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 06:20 AM


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15 minutes later, Imre Lengyel on the phone, speaking Hungarian:
- "Yes, you beardless prot! What is so hard to understand in "put the garrison on alert!"?
- "I know, I know, if I am wrong the Kaiser will use my tripes to lasso rabbits!"
- "I hit a blood vessel - the poor sod died in my arms ... "

After hanging up the Secretary picks up piece again, demands to be put through to the Emperor
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 08:19 AM


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The briefcase is opened with extreme caution, by military engineers, after checking for explosives, etc. The Austrians fear gas or something else nasty.
   
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Agrival Mars    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 08:49 AM


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The lid pops open and out jumps a poisonous green jack-in-the-box with a note pinned on it's hat.

QUOTE
BOOM,
Gotcha
   
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Desertfox II    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 09:15 AM


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"That my friends is why you should always bring gas mask to any conference..." said the unknown observer as he placed his on.

BTW I'm playing myself so since Arizona is currently in the CSA, I would have to say my observer is from there, but is not affiliated with the goverment.
   
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Phoenix    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 09:27 AM


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Prince Pu Lun had been nodding his assent while the points of the proposal were being read. He too acknowledged that his Government could certainly agree with, and even sign, the proposal as it was.
When the gentleman with the briefcase entered and made his speech the young prince eyed the briefcase with some weariness but did not move. He remained seating even through the commotion that followed, while some members of his entourage had back-tracked and made ready to leave. When asked why he remained so calm he answered:"Elder Princes of the Realm have survived such an attack before. Should I cower and tremble ?"
He continued to regard the commotion around this Agrival-person with mild intrest. Keeping his counsel.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 11:50 AM


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OOC
Imre Lengyel talked briefly with the man he had shot, and who died quickly - practically in Imre's arms.

The delegates were led outside and asked to come tomorrow.
The opening of the briefaces was made about an hour later.
I am playing this that the setting is the Ballplatz.

The Viennese Garrison has been put on alter, as well as the local police force. A detachment from the IR Regiment 99 "the Putschers" put on a guard around the Imperial palace. Gendarmerie in nearby towns was put on laerrt, ready to head for the capital. The Uhlans at Neu Markt were ordered to march to the capital. Stefan was furious.

Borys
   
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Ithekro    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 01:09 PM


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"That Baug is everywhere these days." siad the Rohirrim representative.

"This what?"

"Baug, cruel one. Tyrant perhaps in modern speech. I can't think of a good term for it now." said the Rohirrim.

"Anarchist?"

"Hmmm, and Anarchist Businessman perhaps. Willing to create chaos and war for his own profit."

"Devil"

"That would work," The Rohirrim idly rubbed a small leaf penant on his collar. "This goes more to show why Rohan has put a generous bounty on his head."
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 01:10 PM


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In the morning of the next day the Foreign Ministry arranged with the Police to have plainclothes policeman available to escort the Delegeates to the Ballplatz. FM officials - selected amongst those known personally by diplomatic personel of given country - visited all delegations in the morning, offering the escort.

The meeting was held in a large room. Only the front part was well light by sunlight, two thirds where the curtains were drawn, lay in deep shadow.

Imre Lengyel, at the door, greeted all arriving delegations ...

[Borys]

After all delegations which decided to show up - escorted or not - had seated themselves, Imre Lengyel began to fill them in on what had been established about the incident - not much - and the contents of the briefcase. And then passed to Convention related matters.

Prince Pu Lun heard some whispered commotion from his retinue spread behind his back. He was about to hiss at them angrily when he heard a low whisper and something hard (brass?) pressed into his hand.
- "Your steadfastness yesterday did not pass unnoticed, young Prince. Take this as reminder of that day. This is a model of the castle of Graz - many times besieged, many times surrounded, but never overcome, never subdued. It has always endured, unmoved, like you yesterday ... "

The Secretary got to the point about signing ...

- "I will sign for Austria!" - boomed Stefan straightening himself to full height from where he had stooped next to Pu Lun and marched up to the table.
Grabing a pen proferred by a surprised FM offical, he scribled vigorously on the paper. Lengyel whispered something in his ear and Stefan scribled again, this time somehwere lower on the paper. He turned to the room.
- "Austria will fight on these terms - and so help me God! The very fact that We were insulted yesterday - in Our very own capital - by the mockery of that bandit shows that this accord IS important."
The Emperor turned his face towards the Rohirrim delegate.
- "We equal the prize awarded by the King of Rohan and add Our prize to His. Thank you Gentelmen for being here. You can work without me now."
   
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swamphen    
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 03:28 PM


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Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg signs the main treaty, but not the Annex, noting that "the information that the murderer Agrival has provided the techniques for the greengas to unknown parties means we must retain the ability to respond in kind." He glances torwards Prince Pu Lun, then continues. "However we of Brandenburg do promise to conduct all warfare in a matter according with the rules of honour. And as an example to those who will not do that, the German Reich hereby increases the bounty on Agrival Mars to 8,000 gold Kaisermarks."
   
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Earl822    
Posted: Oct 24 2006, 02:06 AM


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Vice Admiral Greenwich, spying an Opportunity stood with a flourish, brandishing his Solid Gold Parker Pen, moving to the signing table, he spoke.

QUOTE
"Gentlemen, we have survived a darstadly and indescriminative attack on ourselves and on the pride of our nations, It is clear that this Agrival is a ruthless, heartless man, without mercy, and he must be punished! But to the point, I hereby sign this treaty on behalf of the King of the United Kingdom of America, so that we may be agreed in a way to conduct armed conflict between ourselves and others."


With a second flourish he signed the treaty, then pausing to read a telegraph message handed to him, he began once more.

QUOTE
"Gentlemen, I have just recieved communication that my Government has also raised it's bounty upon the head of Agrival Mars to £8,000 to be paid in Golden Sovereigns. The Message also contains the following statement
QUOTE
'As the Baltic Leauge, is at present so obviously providing safe haven for the Criminal Agrival Mars, the United Kingdom of America again demands that they should hand over Control of the territories of Newfoundland, and Bermuda, which evidence shows are  being used by the master criminal as a base for his operations, with the full knowledge of the ruling power!'
My Friends, if this takes my nation to go to war to stop this, we will do so in full accordance with this treaty, but I pray that we will be able to find a diplomatic solution.


His speaking done he returned to his seat
   
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Phoenix    
Posted: Oct 24 2006, 05:21 AM


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Prince Pu Lun stared for a moment at the tiny resemblance of the fortress, his dark eyes a mystery as he idly stroked the battlements. Then he looked at the Giver of this Gift, voiced his thanks for such a magnificent gift himself being hardly worthy to receive, and stroke the battlements once more, smiling.
Then he handed it over to a secretary with the order to tuck it safely away and waited for his turn to speak or act. He decided he'd do both.

"This humble servant of His Imperial Majesty Emperor Kaili, may He live 10.000 times 10.000 years in health and prosperity, has been given the power to sign this agreement in His Majesty's Name. It is wise to regulate warfare, to entrust the art of war to those trained in it, to advance Harmony in the world and protect the innocents from grieveous death and misery.

A Ruler is always responsible for the welfare of His subjects. And bringing Peace to them by removing warfare from their midst, fellow envoys and delegates, is the Paragon of Good Deeds. You shall be remembered. Children will sing your praise for generations to come and honour you when you have rejoined the Ancestors.

This Agrival that has you so inflamed in righteous anger is perceived as a danger by you, for he mocks your status, disrupts your work, and upsets the balances between your nations with his machinations. He might well be a demon in disguise, sowing discord and death in this world. Yet some of you need him, don't you ?

And that is why I will sign the Annex on this Agreement as well. Some toys are better not left in children's hands. But this one cannot be taken away now that it is here. So we must admonish the children to be careful."

He gracefully went over to the signing stand, followed by one of his secretaries holding a tray with a brush, an inkstone, a small vessel with water and a small spoon. The Prince gently spooned a bit of water on the inkstone, picked up the brush and swept it over the ensuing ink-puddle, then painted delicate Chinese characters as his signature.
Then he went back to his seat. And observed.
   
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Maddox    
Posted: Oct 28 2006, 10:46 PM


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Without garanties that the signatories of this meeting won't abuse the stipulations and rules against non signatories, nor having any means to enforce the rules in any way, France cannot agree.

We of Glorious France will do this concession. We will not use poison gasses against honorable enemies.
   
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Borys    
Posted: Oct 28 2006, 11:32 PM


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Imre Lengyel
- "Austria is saddened by the non-signing by France. However, it apluads the declaration of non use of poison gas, even if in certain situatons. Rome was not built in a day, so there is Hope that the acts of Signatories, and those who without signing will still abide by its terms, will make more countries sign it."

Borys
   
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Phoenix    
Posted: Oct 31 2006, 09:18 AM


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Observing how several nations refused to sign, Prince Pu Lun smiled from his seat and was heard to say: "The paragons of civilization are thus recognized." And he kept on smiling.
   
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Ithekro    
Posted: Nov 8 2006, 07:53 PM


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Boromir Lightfoot, for Theocro King of Rohan will sign this document, but will also state a warning that should a power use or act against Rohan using items or tactics banned from this agreement, Rohan will return any discretions upon its attackers in kind as justifiable in times of war.

[maddox]

In the N-verse only the common rules at sea are accepted.

Women and Children first.

You do not shoot at shipwrecked people.

You will help shipwrecked people as soon it is possible do to so.

Things that got accepted but can be ignored.  

Slavery is not done.

Poison gas is a horrible weapon. Don't use it, or get retaliation in the same way.

Facts
The red cross does not excist

there is no such thing as the UN or the "volkenbond"

Personal issue. for the first time as player

QUOTE
1 - Combatants fight, Civilians do not. Civilians are not targets for the Combatants.
A Combatant carries weapons openly, and is CLEARLY marked in some manner - uniform is best, can be headdress, armband, whatever.


As France recognises the use of this rule, we would support this fully. But we also see the reasoning of the Rohirrim.

We suggest that soldiers wear a token identifying them as part of a military organisation.
This token would give the wearer the " benefit" of being interned, after capture and kept safe as long the war he's involved in, continious. Or unless the waring parties agree on an prisoner exchange.
We suggest to uniformize this token for all the countries that are participating in this conference.

This token doesn't have to be worn visible.  But the concequences of this "invisible token" are severe.
If the token isn't worn obviously visible,  France will see this as an act of betrayal. The captured soldier who doesn't wear a visible token or isn't visibly marked in any way as a non-civilian will be seen as a criminal, acting on its own, without any governement except the French to punish this criminal, with recourse on diplomatic or other ties to foreign support.

[Desertfox]

Of course some do not fight that way and feel the need to shoot civilians without cause, mutilate prisioners, and use civilians as cannon fodder.

[maddox]

Desertfox.   

Why not issuing a " Diplomatic message" or a "civil warning" amongst honorable civilised people?