New Refit Rules

[P3D]

SO...
Basically you're saying "I did this to force people to refit their ships rather than scrap them after they became useless?"

No. I did this so people would have to pay at least a minimal attention to periodic upkeeps, as the 15-year rule was apparently not working at all, people were just building new shiny ships and completely neglecting upgrades.

So, it all comes out.

Your only problem is that the CSA just cannot afford the navy you wish to have, as it needs to maintain a heavy army against its neighbors. You rather blame the stupid rules changes (TM) and dictatoristic moderators than make hard choices in your build scedule.
As I look at the numbers, I see that the CSA is the most heavily industrialized nation, having 6$ income for each BP. You'd have only 19-20BP to be in line

Nevermind that the new rules allows you to build a bigger fleet than before, and you just don't have the money too fully utilize your oversized heavy industry (but keep building BPs instead of IC to change the equation).

It's not about accurate repair times, or anything like that.
It's just to make sure that people didn't just use ships till they became useless, and then decide to scrap them. Instead, you make them repair them every 10 years and thus extend their lifespan or risk not having the 'perform perfectly' *very subjective and totally based on your whim* when they go into an operation.

Besides make up rules reflecting the effect *totally subjective and totally based on my whim* is to declare that ships which do not get their periodic upgrades are totally useless and would sink on the second day leaving port (or something).
Otherwise people won't bother.

Seems this IS to force us to spend money on old ships and ensure use of repair/refit rules outside of wartime instead of just building a class of ship, using it till obsolete, and then scrapping and building a new class.

It is to force people to get their ships periodically out of the OOB because otherwise they won't do so - their full force somehow will be available when the war starts.

The difference between upgrade and limited modernization is very hard to quantify.

[Korpen]

SO...
Basically you're saying "I did this to force people to refit their ships rather than scrap them after they became useless?"

No. I did this so people would have to pay at least a minimal attention to periodic upkeeps, as the 15-year rule was apparently not working at all, people were just building new shiny ships and completely neglecting upgrades.

To be honest I fail to see what the problem with that is .

After all, considering the pace of progress, a 10-15 year old ship is highly obsolete, so spending lots of money on a ship that have already been used up and basically is awaiting scarping is not worth it.
And the upkeep we are paying for shold include periodic upkeep and dry-dock visits, but IMO there is no huge need so go into great detail about it.
As technological progress gets less radical (I think we are around the peak at the moment), older ships will have greater usage, and so will see more upgrading and refiting.

I hope people does not take things here too personally, by and large I think the mods have done a very good job on the rules, and the latest updates were a great improvement that those responsible should have a lot of credit for.

There will always be thing about rules to discuss, and I think it is a good thing that is discussed every now and then, so that we can get it out of the system and move on.

[Tanthalas]

Once again I cant say for anyone else, but for me refits are almost a waste.  ill begin replacing my out of date cruisers in H1-10.  gona post the replacement later tonite (once i finish the pic)

[Korpen]

Oh, who in here is the most cost-conscious?
Who is building 17,000t semi-dreadnoughts while everyone else is building 23-25000t super-dreadnoughts? Who is trying to remove some of the need for destroyers by building cheap, merchant standard patrol craft for coastal work rather than using more expensive craft? Who was the first person building destroyers SMALLER than his tech level's max size?

Ummm... That would be me.

Only one planned Battlecruiser stuffed into 15,000 tons (armor? who needs armor?). Multi-purpose 270 ton DDs replacing regular DDs, and then getting replaced by 170 ton Patrol Torpedo Boats. Very few planned full size DDs, replacement plans where for 590 ton DDs. I felt the pinch quite some time ago.

Only way to solve the problem was to merger with Japan. Which BTW would not have had the capacity to build anything remotely like the OTL IJN.

Well I think we are looking at different solutions to similar problems.
I am building max size destroyers as I want to be able to both redeploy them between oceans, and use them for extended operations, something smaller destroyers, no matter their range or relative seakeeping, is not able to do (the reason why accommodations is fairly good on Dutch ships). So I am building 750 ton destroyers as that is cheaper then building two 500 ton ships to do the same job.

Carthaginian: You are not the only one who has been building small cheap patrol boats to reduce the wear and tear on the destroyers, I got loads of gunboats for that purpose.

[Ithekro]

So...what was the point of this arguement again?

That the word manditory was used for refits every 10 years?

That some people flat out don't want to refit their fleets because they have ships they believe are useless to keep in service and would rather replace them with newer ships?

Questions of my own:  What period of history are we in?  Predreadnought -Dreadnought era.  A time when most old ships were rapidly becoming obsolite.  What time period were there a lot of refits and rebuilds to keep fleets functional for longer?  Ironclad-predreadnought era and Washington treaty era.  The former because of serious shifts in weaponry while the vessels were not all that old, or a lot of experiments with armor and weapons layout.  In the later, because new ship construction was restricted.  In the early Dradnought era we have a huge increase in industry and ships grew rapidly in speed, armor, and firepower.  The predreadnought era ships could not be modified enough to compete with the newer ships and were thus given second tier and third tier duties until their hulls aged out.  Some got refits, but this seems to be more to take stuff off the ships and make them less useful or useful in a different roll than it was originally designed for. 

So the question becomes: Why do nations refit ships?  And when don't they refit ships?  Is it cheaper to refit an older warship to keep it in service, or build a new one that can do the job much better than the old one?  Is is worth refitting or rebuilding?  Rohan looked at the Bregos and said they were not worth refitting and they were not what the Mark wanted for coastal defense so they were sold.  The Theodens were seen as workable for the second line forces and thus are being rebuilt with more modern weapons and engines.  The old destroyers and torpedo boats are extremely outdated and the older protected cruisers are just worn out.

[The Rock Doctor]

It is to force people to get their ships periodically out of the OOB because otherwise they won't do so - their full force somehow will be available when the war starts.

This is a valid concern.  Even an aggressor with a timetable is going to have vessels out of service, because stuff breaks.  

However, an alternative might be to state, up front, that 10% (or whatever) of a fleet is out of service for refits/repairs/trials in any given time.  The mods can roll dice for each category of ship to determine which battleship, which cruiser(s), etc., happen to be out of service when the balloon goes up.  

After all, considering the pace of progress, a 10-15 year old ship is highly obsolete, so spending lots of money on a ship that have already been used up and basically is awaiting scarping is not worth it.

I agree - but in my mind, this is a temporary situation largely due to the switch from VTE to turbines.  A 1905 turbine-powered ships is likely to see a life in excess of 10-15 years (unless Foxy gets to it first), in which case she's bound to need refurbishment eventually.

I hope people does not take things here too personally, by and large I think the mods have done a very good job on the rules, and the latest updates were a great improvement that those responsible should have a lot of credit for.

I agree.  

Now the cost of all this...well that is the question.  Should it be reflected in the Maintenance upkeep or saved up for a refit?

My viewpoint is coming round to this:

Maintenence = Keeping the ship operational with the technology originally installed in her.  

Refit/rebuild/refurbishment/pimp-my-dreadnought = Replacing old technology with new technology.  New wireless, new guns, new engines, new waffle irons, whatever.

In combat, we would see a difference between similar ships that have and have not been refitted.  One would have better wireless, better fire control, higher-performance guns, etc, than the other.

I do not have a hard suggestion on the specific cost of a refit, but am leaning towards a minimum cost in $/BP/time, plus whatever specific weapons/armor/miscelleneous weight is updated.

[Ithekro]

I like the roll idea Rocky.  While it would take time on this end of things, it would only need to be once once per side involved (because after that ships are likely going to be in port to get repaired....unless you are Swiss, then you keep your damaged ships going back into the fight even if she can't realistically fight anymore).

[Carthaginian]

Rock Doctor,

I have looked over the posts you have made on refits and costs in Wesworld... the stickied one. Is that the standing refit cost table? I think it's fair and equitable. I also accept the roll idea as far as which ships would be out of service at the begining of the war for maintenance.

What I do not accept- Ithekro, P3D and everyone else- is the fact that the rules were changed, and the only SOLID explanation we've gotten is:

people were just building new shiny ships and completely neglecting upgrades.

This is a time period where that was POLICY, dammit. Anyone who could afford to build new was doing so. Older ships were being mothballed faster than any time in history save the end of WWII, and newer ones coming online faster than at any other time save the beginning of WWII.


Ithekro:

The predreadnought era ships could not be modified enough to compete with the newer ships and were thus given second tier and third tier duties until their hulls aged out.  Some got refits, but this seems to be more to take stuff off the ships and make them less useful or useful in a different roll than it was originally designed for.

This is PRECISELY what I'm arguing about. P3D is saying 'You need to upgrade, not build new ships. Thus, I will change a 15 year lifespan to 10 years, then kill of ships that might have 2-3 more years of useful service with a GM fiat, and thus impede the laydown and construction of new ships to take their place.
Borys' suggestion of a 10%/6 month 'maintenance call' is all we'd need to keep a ship in service at it's nominal operating capacity. We should NOT be charged the cost of a REFIT for ships that the RN rode hard and put up wet for a decade.. we are NOT doing that kind of work every time we pull our ships into a yard.

Carthaginian: You are not the only one who has been building small cheap patrol boats to reduce the wear and tear on the destroyers, I got loads of gunboats for that purpose.

Not so much wear and tear as to eliminate them.
I'm trying to sell/phase out as many as possible.
Destroyers for the fleet, and sloops for the coast.
Really, it's the only way to afford a fleet big enough for most of us to cover our coasts or necessary SLoC.

[Sachmle]

My take on all of this is: Carthaginian's main original point was that before the rule change his line of thinking is: "I have ships that are marginaly useful, at best, that I will be replacing soon, but can't right now. Since they don't "Need" refit until they're 15 y/o they're still ok for patrol/coastal protection. Now all of the sudden, without warning, they're overdue for a refit and even more useless, I still can't afford to replace them yet, and now I have to find $ to refit them or pay the penalty. How is this fair?"  Sound about right? I'm I missing the point?

Also, P3D, you do good work, and alot of it, this whole thing is way out of hand by now, but no reason to take the "Well fine, I'll take my ball and go home" approach.  Take a few days, calm down, and think about it.  I'm sure Carth's not trying to personnaly blame you for everything, he's just upset by circumstance. Maybe if there had been some discussion before on "what a refit covers" and a warning of the new rule comming up this would not be happening.  And always remember "Rule #1, Play the game, not the rules."

[Ithekro]

It might be useful to come up with rules (or at least a common proceedure) on what happens to ships that don't get their refits.  Then it is just a matter of "is it worth it to refit this ship, or just leave it alone" choices.  My imaginations says that the problems will not be too bad in the 10-15 years of service period.  Slightly worse from the 15-20 year period, and then worse still at 20 and then again at 30 years in service without a refit.

Things like speed reductions, greater inaccuracy, perhaps lower crew moral during peacetime, and a roll for a possible critical hit at the start of a battle to simulate something not working correctly.  This added to Rocky's 10% suggestion to see if the ship didn't just break down at harbor and needs repairs/refit in order to even leave the harbor.  Most of these would be minor annoyances early on, but would start to accumilate over time.  After 30 years in service with no refit the hull might start to rebel against the ship in places and the ship may only be able to maintain her cruising speed without complaint from the engines.  Of for some reason the ship makes it to 60 year without a refit, the ship is rusting out, the hull is warping, and likely has several serious problems with the machinary and superstructure.  The guns probably don't work, or if they do, they work poorly.  The ship has been maintained, but stuff is just worn out from 60 years of being used.  If it passes every roll and is still serviceable in wartime...wow.  (Its like some of the older ships in the Mexican Navy or some of the few remaining World War II ships still serving in foreign navies, though most of those have had refits or rebuilds).

[Tanthalas]

It might be useful to come up with rules (or at least a common proceedure) on what happens to ships that don't get their refits.  Then it is just a matter of "is it worth it to refit this ship, or just leave it alone" choices.  My imaginations says that the problems will not be too bad in the 10-15 years of service period.  Slightly worse from the 15-20 year period, and then worse still at 20 and then again at 30 years in service without a refit.

Things like speed reductions, greater inaccuracy, perhaps lower crew moral during peacetime, and a roll for a possible critical hit at the start of a battle to simulate something not working correctly.  This added to Rocky's 10% suggestion to see if the ship didn't just break down at harbor and needs repairs/refit in order to even leave the harbor.  Most of these would be minor annoyances early on, but would start to accumilate over time.  After 30 years in service with no refit the hull might start to rebel against the ship in places and the ship may only be able to maintain her cruising speed without complaint from the engines.  Of for some reason the ship makes it to 60 year without a refit, the ship is rusting out, the hull is warping, and likely has several serious problems with the machinary and superstructure.  The guns probably don't work, or if they do, they work poorly.  The ship has been maintained, but stuff is just worn out from 60 years of being used.  If it passes every roll and is still serviceable in wartime...wow.  (Its like some of the older ships in the Mexican Navy or some of the few remaining World War II ships still serving in foreign navies, though most of those have had refits or rebuilds).

I LOVE IT, mental note stop maintnence on 1 ship just so I can have a Harbor Quean

[The Rock Doctor]

added to Rocky's 10% suggestion to see if the ship didn't just break down at harbor and needs repairs/refit in order to even leave the harbor. 

I didn't quite mean "the ship broke down as it was poised to sortie on Mission X" but rather, "the ship entered drydock for three months of work, and two weeks later, with her machinery strewn all over the place, a war started."  But you get the idea. 

An actual "stuff breaks at the last moment" roll might be appropriate as well, as it introduces some fog-of-war, but the odds of this happening would be somewhat lower, I'd think. 

I have looked over the posts you have made on refits and costs in Wesworld... the stickied one. Is that the standing refit cost table? I think it's fair and equitable.

I'll repost this here, substituting in Swampy's revision of the actual table, which appears further down that thread.  Note that "cost" in Wesworld is strictly measured in "warship materials" - BP; there is no currency/money.  Note also that I have some concerns over costs associated with armament, which seem steep:

Modifying warships

There are a number of tasks that can be done to improve a warship. These are grouped into five categories, with increasing complexity, cost, and infrastructure requirements. The most complex task in a warship improvement project determines the overall cost and infrastructure requirement.

Cost is both the percentage of original building time required to do the work, and the percentage of the light displacement that must be spent in warship materials.

Infrastructure requirements are, in order of complexity:

None (N): The ship can anchor anywhere and do the task itself - provided it has miscellaneous weight to carry the materials needed.

Tender (T): The ship and a tender or repair ship can anchor anywhere to do the task - provided the ships have the miscellaneous weight to carry the materials needed.

Port (P): The ship must be anchored at a military facility containing at least one Port, Slip, or Drydock. The ship is considered to be tied up at a pier - it does not use a drydock.

Drydock (D): The ship must be in a drydock long enough to accommodate it.

Level 1: Manual Refits (Cost = 5%)

-Changes (number/quantity/type/location) to searchlights: N
-Changes to ship?s boats: N
-Changes to guns of 65mm and smaller not served by hoists: N
-Cosmetic or temporary changes to superstructure (ie, a fake funnel): N

Level 2: Minor Refits (cost = 15%)

-Changes to radar: P
-Changes to guns of 65mm and smaller served by hoists: T
-Changes to depth charge racks and throwers: T
-Changes to torpedo carriages: T
-Changes to gun directors: T
-Minor changes to superstructure (enclosing a bridge, adding a searchlight platform): T

Level 3: Major Refits (cost = 25%)

-Changes to catapults and/or above-decks seaplane hangers: P
-Changes to deck mount or turret armor: P
-Changes to conning tower armor: P
-Changes to external armor belts: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to underwater torpedo tubes: D
-Changes to sonar: D
-Changes to guns of 66mm-195mm not involving barbette alterations: P
-Refurbishment of internal fittings for life-extension purposes: P

Level 4: Partial Reconstruction (cost = 50%)

-Changes to bunkerage (type or quantity): P
-Replacement of superstructure: P
-Changes to internal belt armor: P (upper), D (ends, main)
-Changes to deck armor: P
-Changes to guns of 66mm-195mm involving barbette alterations: P
-Replacement of secondary barbettes with powerplant machinery: D
-Changes to guns 196mm and larger not involving barbette alterations: P
-Change to powerplant (type and output): D
-Change to bow form: D
-Change to trim of ship: D
-Change to torpedo bulkheads: D

Level 5: Total Reconstruction (cost = 75%)

-Changes to guns 196mm and larger involving barbette alterations: D
-Replacement of main barbette with powerplant machinery: D
-Insertion or removal of section of hull amidships: D
-Reshaping of stern: D

Note

There may be a scenario in which the most complicated task in a job is something requiring the use of a port - yet the job also includes a lesser task that requires the use of a drydock. For example, removal of submerged torpedoes (a 25% task) and a change to internal armor (a 50%) task. In this case the ship would have to spend 25% of its original build time in drydock, and the remaining 25% could either be spent in drydock or just in the port.

[Sachmle]

Is a little more complex than "20%=refit, ship works like new" but I like it.  Sometimes K.I.S.S. doesn't work.

[Borys]

Not nice.

BTW - shouldn't overhauls get moe expensive with ship age?
10% at 10 years, 15-20% at 20, and so on?
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

I think we had that discussion here at some point.  It was probably inconclusive.