What are the Swiss?

[maddox]

The premisse of Japan becoming New Swiss was a thing of following Nverse II facts.

Japan was depopulated after a volcanic eruption somewere in the 16th century.  The locals who survived barely could keep their ancient knowledge alive, but not active. The displacement of the Normans in the 18th century and the Swiss a generation later created an influx of people and idea's. 

This doesn't explain the population explosion. But can be aided by further immigration.

The Nverse III expanded on this issue, by displacing a lot of the Japanese Nobles to the MK.
In exchange for support and even shelter, the MK emperor of that era asked the Japanese to conquer Mantsuria and rule it in his name. This happened.

The 20th century brought opportunities.  Japanese suprematists made a push for power and could get into power on the Japanese islands. Driving off most influential Swiss politicians, bureaucrats and simular parasites. 

Later on the pacific war changed the power tables even more.

[Tanthalas]

I look on it like this History is history.

[Ithekro]

Fixing history, since 1898.  ;D

[Ithekro]

In terms of population and territory, if we use Rocky's version of New Switzerland (rather than the broken up version), the land mass should have an area of 167,961 square miles.  (The size of Numenor from Middle Earth which is the basis for this land mass).

The population problem for the Swiss (aside from the rules adjusting from one system to another and starting off with a points based system that allowed the populations to be whatever 50 points could get you in people and industry) was that New Switzerland use to be Japan in N2.  With the switch over, Japan became Japan and the Swiss "Home Islands" became their own place that didn't exist in N2.  Much like Rohan went from being the Pacific Northwest from the Dakotas to Washington of N2 to being the known lands of Middle Earth in N3.  Things happened.  They were not explained.  They just sort of are.  The results of which have been mixed as we see now.  Navalism is still fuctional (fortunately), it just have some dirt to sort out.

[Tanthalas]

or just sweap under the rug.

[Ithekro]

We would if the balance of powers, ship designs, and several national reactions to various nations were not so heavily influenced by N2 history.  Take the Middle Kingdom's hatred of the Swiss.  That is a direct product of IC N2 material rather than N2 history or backstory.  The way in which the Columbias gains several islands in the Caribbean are a direct result of the Eastern Kingdom's invasion of the old Island Commonwealth (a defunct N2 country that never really got past the first quarter or two of 1898 in terms of detail).  Also the legacy of N2 technology, relations, and problems has continued into N3 on purpose because we were not trying to start over, but trying to continue were we left off.  It didnt't work out perfectly because we had some holes to fill and other problems to solve....which created more problems.  Most were smoothed out, but some remain.  The hope of this thread is to smooth out some more of the problems so they won't surface again as they tend to give the mods ulcers and the players headaches.

Note from earlier post: 167,961 square miles is about the size of California and Vermont together.

[Tanthalas]

I was there for the tail end of 2.0 so I remember some of the stuff, slight advantage to me I supose.  Im still trying to remember who was about to invade me in the Philipeans though.  Im fairly sure it was that times NS, but not 100% sure

[Ithekro]

It was the NS but most of the tail end of 1904 and about all of 1905 were glassed over for N3 as things got too weird for the majority to handle.  The "potential war" was settled with a treaty by 1906 that has caused the Iberians grief in the recent war from Dutch views on Swiss-Iberian relations.

Rohan was about the only country that has anything about N2 1905 listed at all, mainly because I didn't leave.  Thus I had my plans and reports for that year intact still.  At least in terms of what ships were built or refitted until the old rules.

[Sachmle]

Is a Nverse noob still, why did N2 go splat or boom or whatever? Did too many players leave, or the non-historic countries became to hard to explain, technology advanced to fast/slow. Curiosity killed that cat, but satifaction brought him back. ;D

[Tanthalas]

Gabbi

[Ithekro]

Weirdness happened late in the game (well more weirdness than normal for us)  That was about settled when the original admin returned from a long period of being away and found he did not like what had been done since he was away.  I might say the heavy handedness and dramatic shift in the balance of power without attempts to resolve the issues, combined with some serious issues between the admin and these that had been running the sim while he was gone, lead to a movement to rebuild what had become Navalism so that it ran relatively smoothly.  These bumps we are having now are small in comparison to what happened before, and we are dealing with them in a more or less civilized manner.

What I find ironic is that the admin left again within a month or so of the "rebellion".  The N2 version of the sim attempted to remake itself in a 1888 version of N2 but stalled hopelessly when so few people did anything in the news.  I wonder if we had waited it out and the admin left again, if N2 would have continued on that site.  It still exists...sort of.  I think it is completely blank or just turned off cause I had access for a while, and then is just stopped working.  I was hoping for a while to have two Navalisms that went on different tangents just to see how they played out, but one has ceased to exist in all practical forms.  N3 is all that remains.

As for this being all Gabbi's fault...it wasn't completely.  That issue was mostly solved and could have been worked with (however weird is was) the Eastern Kingdom.  It was the fallout from Van Owen's return and disagreements with the then moderator and admin that lead to the general exodus from N2.  Style of play became a big issue as the rules for countries had been changed from the start in order to keep the balance of power and keep new large powers from suddenly showing up on one's unprotected border.  This is also why Maoria is like it is and stated as such.  We know it is there, we know it can be powerful, but it doesn't shift the balance of power greatly because it is a known power.  It's new government may shift things a bit, but it was planned on from the start.  The suddenly powerful United States of South America was a rather large shock for the Columbians and shifted the balance of power too greatly.  The Eastern Kinigdom's air heavy power what also a rather dramatic shift in the balance, but one that was being settled OOC to the point where those in the area could deal with the problem (see Rohan's AA technology), and set up rules to keep things from going too wacky (the airships were way to big, but balanced out after a lot of reworking and some very very heated debates (and some name calling that was uncalled for I think).

[Sachmle]

Interesting thought, a parrallel thread titled, "What aren't the Swiss?"

[The Rock Doctor]

If we're going to tinker with history, we should do so only carefully, and as little as possible.

We invoked a depopulation of Japan to explain why the Swiss were able, in N2, to take over Japan with not more than a few million people.  This was necessary because global geography was consistent with historical geography - there was no new Swiss Home Island to put them on.

Now that we have a Swiss Home Island(s), it's more difficult to explain how we populate both them and re-populate Japan at the same time.  So my views on Ithekro's questions are:

Who are the Swiss?

What enthic groups do they really have?

How did they come to be in the Pacific

In what numbers did the Swiss arrive originally?

How do the Normans get involved with this?

What about the Japanese?

What of the other problems in Korea and Mainland China during 1901?

0)  We should consider re-jigging the population of the Swiss Home Islands and eastern Australia.  Keep the overall net-income the same, but increase IC and lower population.  It fits the notion that NS is an advanced, industrialized state, but has minimal affect on game-play.

1.A)  When the French gobsmacked the Norman state (Normandy, southern England) in the late 1700s or early 1800s, the refugees fled primarily to the Norman colonies in America.  A couple million fled to eastern Australia, which already existed as a Norman colony.   

1.B)  When the French clobbered Old Switzerland in ~1805, a couple million Swiss refugees were displaced into southern and eastern Europe.  The host nations didn't want them there - they were lightning rods for French intervention.  The Swiss eventually got fed up with ill treatment and gradually migrated into the Pacific via the Ottoman Empire, which opposed French dealings in Africa and Arabia.  Australia was already occupied; more distant SHI was not, and only recently found, so the Swiss refugees landed there and started over.

2)  We assume Japan's population is largely ethnically Japanese, with an ethnic Swiss minority, not more than 10-20%.  Japan was not politically united when the ethnic Swiss showed up to trade in the mid-19th century.  The ethnic Swiss then took control of Japan in a manner similar to the British Raj:  deceit, money, playing local rulers against each other, and occasional demonstrations of superior technology and firepower.  This sounds broadly consistent with Swiss operating methods as Foxy has described them.

3)  The Swiss Confederation arose primarily as a defensive pact between two states of former refugees, Australia and SHI.   The other little bits (Alaska, Hawaii, etc) were added later.  Political and cultural differences mean that, as Foxy as indicated, there is a fair bit of autonomy within the sub-component states of the Confederation.  However, the over-arching Confederation's structure needs some definition. 

4)  Japan was politically part of the Swiss Confederation, as a colony of the SHI, but was not ethnically Swiss apart from ruling/business classes.  Again - like India was part of the British empire but not ethnically English.

5)  Japanese nationalism arose in the latter part of the nineteenth century and culminated with its seccession from the Swiss Confederation in the chaotic period of 1903-5.  Not all Japanese favored this, but enough of them did.  Some ethnic Swiss fled, but others stayed.  The Japan we see today is a jumbly fusion of Swiss ways and traditional Japanese culture re-asserting itself.

6)  The various Swiss/Chinese conflicts of the 1898-1905 period happened "more or less" as were originally gamed out.  Japan was part of the Swiss Confederation for part of this period; people who are now Japanese citizens fought under the Swiss banner.  How Japan avoids conflict with the Middle Kingdom is for the two of them to explain.

Who is in control?

Who are the pirates (what nationality)?

As Foxy's creations, we should look to him for clear and definite answers for his intentions, but it is up to the Moderators now that NS is an NPC state.

What interal problems are they having and why?

Foxy has invoked a "incompentent government/scheming usurper" scenario, creating at least factions there.  It appears senior military personnel are either sticking their heads in the sand or siding with the usurper. 

If it is true that Australia "started" the war, there should be tension between Australia and SHI, as the SHI got dragged into something they (presumeably) did not want.

I believe that after several years of near-continuous war, with significant territorial, material, and manpower losses, and at least two coup d'etats (during N2 - the Brownshirts coming in, and then being turfed again), there would be a growing war-weary pro-peace faction.

Who does the "Middle Kingdom" really hate?

Whomever the empress considers to be "tainted" by the "Swiss".  This is really for Phoenix to determine as she sees fit.

These are my views.

[Ithekro]

See.  Rational and it makes sense in context.  Trouble is in making to canon and everyone agreeing to it while keeping the flow of fictional time stable.

[The Rock Doctor]

I am nothing but rational, except when I'm not.