Firenji fleet

[P3D]

The current Firenji fleet is more imbalanced than the Holland one. It has 4 modern and 10obsolete/obsolescent battleships/armored cruisers, six light cruisers, six-and half dozens of outdated torpedo boats. However, the lack of modern torpedoes, night fighting tactics, and submarines seriously decreases their utility.

Ignoring tech availability/obsolescence, in what direction the Firenji fleet should develop?
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?board=180.0

Currently, I see two separate job. First is defending the coastline. Here the large number of coastal defense ships and TBs are justified. I'd need a few larger destroyers here, as flotilla leaders and to have ships that are not that helpless in the pretty stormy seas down there.
Second would be the High Seas Fleet - commerce warfare and limited power projection. For this, four slow ACs and 6 fast PCs are available. They stand no chance to catch anything, however, so commerce warfare is limited to raiding and convoy protection.

My current plan is to try to address the most glaring deficiencies 1917-20 - lack of submarines, destroyers and fast cruisers (trying no to look at the pricetag of the latter).

Thoughts/Suggestions?

[Sachmle]

What are Firanj's views on the 3 points of Capital ships, Power, Protection, and Speed?

Does Firanj really NEED to project power far from her own coasts?

Who are you projected enemies? What do they use? Are they capital ship heavy, or asymmetrical warfare experts?

These things are needed before a detailed analysis can be completed, but here's a 'rough sketch' from DKB.

1) More CLs. The newer ones are good, an updated/slightly improved follow up class of ~4 would be good.

2) For Coastal TB leaders 500t DDs should cut it. For fleet escort 1,000t is almost the minimum anymore. Any smaller and your enemies DDs will maul them.

3) You can probably only afford either BBs or BCs, not both. Pick one, stick to it. I don't even know if Firanj has enough BP for a Fast BB/Fully Armored BC. They're still kinda large until the 1920+ engine techs come online. With the Swiss and Dutch running around the Pacific I'd say speed is important if you want an engagement. For purely defensive purposes though, I'd rather have better protection and moderate speed. 23-25kts is probably fast enough unless you want to chase Wilhelmina's, de Ruyter's, and Alaska's.

4) Subs. You already mentioned this, but they're golden in the area you're operating in.

5) If you want to run around far from home these new fangled "scout" ships with their blimps and floating 'aeroplanes' seem in vogue at the moment, but we're not sold on them yet. Seems like a waste of tonnage to carry around something so flimsy. More ocean going DDs seem a better use to of materials to us.

[The Rock Doctor]

Your most likely threat is the one sharing Australia with you, the Swiss.  You'll need to deal with heaps of destroyers and submarines.  Best response is to reciprocate, with CLs to lead them.

You've got islands in the Chagos, I believe, so need to have power projection ability there - some of your old ships will work for that. 

I wouldn't be bothering with capital ships at all, I don't think.  Monitors or some of the better existing battleships/ACs if you need fire support.

[P3D]

The light cruisers are IMHO not that useful without heavy units, an armored cruiser would rip them apart. So Firanj needs some fast capital ships - either cruisers or moderately fast BBs. The Coastal Battleships are good forcing the enemy to send heavy units into unfriendly waters, and provide fire support if necessary, but not much else. The easiest to achieve it to have ships with large guns - the Rohani triple 14"/50s should be adequate considering the opposing fleets in the region. Ideally those capital ships would be sunk by mines or torpedoes. Protection and speed should be adequate.

[Ithekro]

Wouldn't you need an active Rohan to purchase said weapons?

The roughtly 10-20 year old Super Cruisers (or whatever they are calling the 300mm and 330mm gunned warships) should still be at least partly viable for something. thought they were designed as anti-Swiss ships.  Large enough to force the Swiss to concentrate too many naval assets to hunt her down in the case of a war.  Her targets thought would be Swiss shipping if I remember the idea correctly.

As time goes on however, yes the fleet will need more cruisers to keep the Swiss destroyers and torpedo boats in check...also to engage the Swiss cruisers that are bound to follow up on their lost destroyers.

[Carthaginian]

Last I checked, the Rohirrim wouldn't have sold to Firanj.
Till Lloyd gets back to let us know one way or the other, Rohan is probably out.

[P3D]

Last I checked, the Rohirrim wouldn't have sold to Firanj.
Till Lloyd gets back to let us know one way or the other, Rohan is probably out.

There was tech transfer between Rohan and Firanj in 1917, so there'd be a chance

[maddox]

I think France is going to sell the 4 left over Demarce IV cruisers...

[TexanCowboy]

What you have at the moment:

1x Umma-Class BB: 6 13'', 14 5.5'', 21 knots, 11'' belt, 2'' deck, 12,250 tons
1x Hajj-Class BB: 6 13'', 14 5.5'', 21 knots, 10'' belt, 2'' deck, 12,250 tons
2x Tear-Class LBB: 4 10'', 4 5.5'', 15.5 knots, 9'' belt, 2'' deck, 4,500 tons
2x Ghub-Class CDBB: 4 10'', 12 6'', 19 knots, 9'' belt, 2'' deck, 9,750 tons
2x Henri-IV-Class CDBB: 2 12'', 8 5.5'', 17 knots, 15'' belt, 4'' deck, 8,000 tons
2x Tempete-Class CDBB: 2 11'', 4 5.5'', 17 knots, 11'' belt, 3'' deck, 6,000 tons
1x Quiser-Class RBB: 10 10'', 8 5.5'', 10 knots, 12'' belt, 2'' deck, 12,250 tons

2x Justice-Class BC: 4 12'', 12 5.5'', 21.5 knots, 9'' belt, 3'' deck, 13,000 tons
1x Thrawn-Class BC: 4 13'', 12 5.5'', 23 knots, 9'' belt, 2'' deck, 16,500 tons
1x Destiny-Class BC: 4 13'', 12 5.5'', 25 knots, 9'' belt, 2'' deck, 14,000 tons

7x Kolay-Class TB: 2 4'', 5 18'' torp, 30 knots, 500 tons
22x Yapabilir-Class TB: 2 3'', 3 18''' torp, 28 knots, 250 tons
10x Firinci-Class TB: 4 3'', 3 18'' torp, 29 knots, 500 tons
10x Kopek-Class TB: 3 3'', 4 18'', 30.5 knots, 500 tons

10x Nasil-Class GB: 2 3'', 20 knots, 250 tons
6x Oge-Class GB: 2 5.5'', 4 3'', 19 knots, 4'' belt, 750 tons
2x Na'am-Class GB: 2 6'', 6 3'', 13 knots, 3'' belt, 2'' deck, 750 tons

4x Sevmek-Class MS: 1 5.5'', 1 3'', 17 knots, 500 tons
10x Seker-Class MS: 3 3'', 16 knots, 250 tons
9x Obua-Class MW: 3 3'', 50 mines, 17 knots, 250 tons
6x Hazirlik-Class MW: 3 3'', 128 mines, 17 knots, 250 tons

In addition, hooper forgot to include some ships on his OOB:

2x Kelibia-Class PC: 2 6'', 8 3'', 20 knots, 1.5'' deck, 2,000 tons
1x Razia-Class PC: 6 5.5'', 6 3'', 20 knots, 3'' deck, 2,750 tons
1x Aram-Class PC: 10 5.5'', 6 3'', 21 knots, 4'' deck, 3,250 tons
2x Abu-Class PC: 4 5.5'', 10 3'', 27.5 knots, 3'' belt, 1'' deck, 4,000 tons
2x Saladin-Class PC: 8 5.5'', 4 3'', 28 knots, 3'' belt, 1'' deck, 4,000 tons
2x Ghazi-Class PC: 4 6.5'', 6 6'', 28 knots, 3'' belt, 1'' deck, 5,250 tons

2x SS-1 SS: 1 14'' torp, 100 tons

1x Azure AGB: 1 5.5'', 20 knots, 250 tons

1x XXXX TM: 1 3'', 72 18'' torp, 6 knots, 2'' belt, 250 tons

My advice in this situation would be to scrap the Henri IV, Tempeste, Ghub, and Quiser Class battleships, forming the 2 Pocket Dreadnoughts and the 2 orginal Super Cruisers into a battle division, with the 2 lake battleships serving on the lake. I would put the Destiny and Thrawn together, at least until the Thrawn could be replaced, and then move the Thrawn to the battlefleet. It is a torpedo boat heavy force, so I would keep all of those as built, perhaps adding some fleet destroyers, if possible. I would scrap the Kelibia, Razia, and Aram Class cruisers, and attach the remaining 6 wherever. I'd also scrap the Na'am and Nasil class GB's.

You would get about 10.5 BP worth of scrap out of that, which I would use to build some more cruisers or fleet destroyers. You would have, after that, 2 Semi-Dreadnoughts, 4 PD Battlecruisers, 6 cruisers, 49 torpedo boats, 6 gunboats, 29 mine warfare vessels, and 4 special ships....not very balanced, but more balanced then before.

Carth, Hooper was going to buy a battlecruiser from Rohan, IIRC, before he left for the UNK.

Maddox, I suppose Romania could buy...or blow...

[P3D]

The  Ghub class is going to the scrapyard, Vanguarding makes them more usable and I already have more coastal defense ship than healthy. The 4 French ships will get a last overhaul, just to have enough vessels to command in the following years. The Quiser is set to go, so do all the old PCs.

I have a feeling the battlecruiser deal would've involved the three that was destined for the New Swiss. Ah, the irony....

[Ithekro]

Yeah, I'm still not sure what was up with those three Swiss BCs.

[TexanCowboy]

Tan told me....

They were sold to Russia, because Blooded thought all were completed. When that was found out to be otherwise, he sold them to Rohan for 2 Aragon class (or whatever the 10x14'' class was called) battleships.

[Sachmle]

To my knowledge Tex is correct, they ended up in Rohan unfinished.

[Ithekro]

Not sure if that would be considered a good trade, two battleline warships for three scouts.  Even if they were the Nevada-class knock offs.
Oh well.  Would save on having to build two more Battlecruisers that are over treaty limits I suppose.  The third one was suppose to be sold to someone?  (if Rohan had the tech, it make a nice aircraft carrier test conversion)

The question on the Firenji battleline.  What do you see as their tactical uses against their most likely enemy...the New Swiss.

[Carthaginian]

The CSA toyed with a sale, but it never got anywhere before everyone's favorite Uncle cut the LT some new orders.